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Mass Effect 3
Fan Negativity Cited as Reason for BioWare Founders' Retirement
Written Friday, September 28, 2012 By Lee Bradley
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An ex-BioWare dev believes that company co-founders Greg Zeschuck and Ray Muzyka retired due to negative fan reaction to Mass Effect 3 and Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Trent Oster, who worked in various senior positions at Bioware, said that the last time he saw Zeschuck he was visibly exhausted.

“You have to love games and you put your heart into them to create them. To have the fans creating petitions against the work is pretty hard to take.

"The last time I met up with [Greg], I felt his exhaustion,” said Oster. "’Punch out, eject, get the hell out’, was my suggestions to him and it hit closer to the mark than I had realised. I also think the Mass Effect 3 fan reaction and the Old Republic fans' negativity was just too much.

"You have to love games and you put your heart into them to create them. To have the fans creating petitions against the work is pretty hard to take, especially when you've spent the last few years crunching overtime to try and ship a game. It can be hard to shut off the overwhelming negativity the internet spews forth, especially when it has your name or the name of your company in it."

However, despite the fact that Zeschuk’s retirement didn’t come as too much of a surprise, Oster was shocked by Muzyka’s departure.

"Ray surprised me,” said Oster. “I had him pegged as an EA lifer. My thought was the Ray agenda was to first usurp Frank Gibeau and then later John Riccotello as CEO.

“I'm sure the internal culture at EA had pinned the Old Republic conversion to free to play as a failure and hung that completely on Ray, so that would have hurt his upward climb. But, I figured he would fight harder. EA upper management must have been even worse than I thought."

Mass Effect 3 launched last year to widespread fan anger over the game's ending. Such was the outcry that BioWare was forced to issue free DLC in order to supplement the climax of the trilogy.

Meanwhile, despite launching with big subscriber numbers, PC MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic has waned in popularity in recent months. The game is now going free-to-play.

Greg Zeschuck and Ray Muzyka retired from the video game industry earlier this month.

[via NowGamer]




 
 

User Comments
 
Forum Posts: 4488
Comment #1 by SimplySupreme
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 11:59:40 AM
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Lol, whiny little bitches.

 
Forum Posts: 226
Comment #2 by The_Tuck
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:04:34 PM
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Wow. This is why we can't have nice things.

 
Forum Posts: 226
Comment #3 by The_Tuck
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:08:49 PM
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@1: Talk about kicking someone when they're down. They are real people. They didn't whine. Their friends told a reporter that they were worn out due to people like you. I'm glad your life is so perfect that you have nothing but nice things to say about other people.

 
Forum Posts: 4488
Comment #4 by SimplySupreme
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:14:30 PM
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...I'm talking about the stupid Mass Effect "fans", who wore someone down to the point where they actually quit a no doubt highly payed job...How bad must that have been.

 
Forum Posts: 144
Comment #5 by Charlyposho
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:29:34 PM
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Actually I think that it has more relation with the terrible failure that is SW:TOR (for the company), than with ME3. It is obviously easier for them to say " oh me3 fans that complained made us leave" instead of "our online game sucked donkey balls to the point that we had to offer it for free, so we had to quit".

I bet that Free-2-play was not part of the expected budget plan for this game, until people started to leave the game. This is a real reason for a co-founder to leave, not a bunch of angry fans.

 
Forum Posts: 193
Comment #6 by Golem25
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:30:08 PM
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@3, I'm sure they appreciate you being their white knight.

Let's be honest, they deserve everything they got. The moment they sold out to EA, I lost any and all respect and compassion for these people.

 
Forum Posts: 68
Comment #7 by KyLeKhAoS
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 12:31:21 PM
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I understand when developers make a game they want it to appeal to the customers they are selling to, but chances are these guys got into development for the love of gaming and wanted to make games they were proud of and enjoyed, not because of customers. I think too many gamers have this sense of self entitlement, which is understandable to a degree seeing as they are the customers, but I know if I wanted to make games they would be tailored to what I enjoy and what I like. I'm sure many people out there don't like the same exact kinds of games I do, but bottomline if you don't like it, don't buy it, and certainly don't play it.

 
Forum Posts: 70
Comment #8 by Psx0005
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:06:46 PM
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@6: Same could be said for anyone that "sold out" to Microsoft, Sony, Activision, UbiSoft, or any of the other companies that are out there. The moment the gaming industry became the big cash cow for the corporations out there was the day that my love for gaming as a whole started to wane.

Trying to be innovative or even write good storylines into videogames nowadays is going to be a rarity. Just bringing in the same old idea that worked before with a number in the title until oversaturation sets in seems to be the norm

 
Forum Posts: 753
Comment #9 by DarkByke
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:35:31 PM
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Good job assholes. Ruin gaming for everyone. If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to go out and petition and shit.... This is why the gaming community is dying. This is why major corporations are running things now, killing the indie development.

 
Forum Posts: 372
Comment #10 by nycking
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:37:01 PM
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What did they expect? They bent over for EA. Either way I personally won't be missing them. By the way guys, tell your old co-workers they can suck a fat one if they think people will be buying the Mass Effect Trilogy for Mass Effect 1 without the DLC.

 
Forum Posts: 433
Comment #11 by LionSquid
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:39:34 PM
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@8 selling out to EA is like signing your own death warrant. I'm surprised this isn't an announcement that they're shutting down Bioware. They've been going downhill fast.

 
Forum Posts: 328
Comment #12 by Cromag2
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:41:28 PM
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I remember in the WAY back time machine when you bought a game, brought it home and played it, and if it sucked guess what you did - JACK SHIT!

And if it was great, guess what you did - JACK SHIT!

stupid www, makes every entitled little kid a fukin genius...

The ME3 ending did suck, so what, changing it and kowtowing because of little bitches sucked way worse...

 
Forum Posts: 13
Comment #13 by SilverGriever
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 01:55:34 PM
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Well done crybabies! (the fans)
This is what happens when you mess with someone's IP.

 
Forum Posts: 25
Comment #14 by dementedlullaby
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 02:58:59 PM
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Maybe if SWToR wasn't so God awful people wouldn't have whined.

Quitting because of negative feedback is pathetic lol. Listening to feedback and implementing well thought out fan feedback should be a priority for every dev. Not just : WAHHHHH I don't like what people are saying so I quit!

 
Forum Posts: 212
Comment #15 by randomguy666
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 03:01:19 PM
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I think the biggest reason for consumers out-crying was the way that Bioware handled it's PR over the issue, bearing in mind that there were two key areas that had people raging, one of which started a few weeks before the game released:

The Prothean DLC - Content that was FINISHED and placed on the original disk was partially removed and then charged for as a day 1 DLC. This annoyed consumers in several ways but the main reason was because of this: we were told that the content was not on the disk before the game was released, and had been created post game completion, though a quick look in the PC version's files proved this to be a lie, and a simple edit on a file brought up Javik as a selectable character - you can check youtube if you don't believe me.

The Endings - The endings flat out felt cheap, like everything you'd done in the previous games meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. However, what madethings worse was the way in which Bioware and EA treated those who had some fairly legit complaints. They refused to accept that their endings were "bad", and refused to acknowledge the fair and legit questions that people had about why they chose that particular type of ending.

In short, the PR mess they found themselves in came back and bit them big time. Bioware were seen by many as a company that could do know wrong, and listened to their customers feedback and often acted on it. Now, we've had 3 games that have failed to live up to the hype in a row (Dragon Age 2, The Old Republic MMO and ME 3) and they've suffered a huge damage to their image over how they acted during the ME3 debarcle.

Companies need to realise something - treat your customers like **** and try and rip us off, and we'll take our money elsewhere

 
Forum Posts: 82
Comment #16 by Wicked Seraph
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:10:33 PM
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I think the people bashing the people bashing them for failing need to realize something. WE Pay 60 dollars for these games. WE PAY PAY PAY KEY FUCKING WORD So yeah if it sucks such as ME3 and Old republic did we have every right to say hey your game blows do better. They are the whiny little bitches. They made a bad game I mean seriously who would sit back at ME3s ending and go wow what a great ending? And Old republic? gtfo was garbage i know 1 person still playing it and he said if the next patch doesnt bring people out hes out too. Its their own fault for making bad games. They deserve every bit of shit flipped their way. The day they start making games and giving them away for free is the day they can QQ like a 5 year old girl when people give them negative feedback.

 
Forum Posts: 291
Comment #17 by brandaman69
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:32:01 PM
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@ everyone their is a difference in saying wow that game sucks ass, and messaging the developers saying hey that game sucks ass and if you don't change it I am gonna kill your family.Unfortunately their were a bunch of the latter and IMO death threats are really annoying to deal with. Also to everyone saying that you pay for it you have the right to say it sucks that's true but nobody has the right to whine to them about how bad their game is .

 
Forum Posts: 71
Comment #18 by aliceinlalaland
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:49:26 PM
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i find it funny how many people say ME3 sucked. i thought it was bar none the best of the series, and no ending changed how great it was playing it

 
Forum Posts: 328
Comment #19 by Cromag2
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:51:14 PM
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@16, your dead on, we pay a shit ton of money just to play these things, so what? I pay $54.00 to take my family to see Kung Fu Panda 34 or whatever the hell it was, it sucked, so what.

I dont give two craps about getting on my phone and calling the CEO of Paramount pictures and demanding a better 2nd arc of storyline, its entertainment, buy it or dont - most of the kids moaning wont even be playing games in ten years, this is all new to them...

 
Forum Posts: 1492
Comment #20 by SoPoF
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:53:06 PM
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"An ex-BioWare dev believes ..." - So it's as good as any other rumored reason.

Maybe they were just really exhausted? Last time I checked, working in the games industry was said to be quite the tough work. I cannot imagine two such veterans quitting their "life jobs" just because one or two games didn't get only praise. Except for the ending, people seemed to like ME3 well enough. Don't know about that Star Wars game, but even if everyone hated it ... it's really just ONE game.

"Such was the outcry that BioWare was forced to issue free DLC" - BioWare wasn't forced to do so.

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #21 by Creepter
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 04:53:14 PM
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The danger here would be the people who claim that this is somehow our, the customers, fault. If you really believe that then fuck you.


This obviously was a long time coming. Two succesful people don't just leave a well paid, respectable job because a majority of people dislike part of their product. You take a hiatus for a few months to re-gather your energy and then you come back to make things right again with your next product.

Bioware themselves haven't been acting very mature with this whole mess either. They spent the first months silent as brick walls, punishing anyone who spoke out on the BSN and occasionally insulted the critics while the fanbase was basically just begging for them to open and have a conversation with them.

I don't believe that these two guys, guys who I would buy beers to if I ran into them at a bar because of the company they started, left because of the massive outcry. Don't believe it for a second.

If people want to blame someone for Bioware's downfall, don't point fingers at people and ignorant call them "whiners and moaners" and pretend that we destroyed Bioware.
Look at Bioware themselves. That's where you'll find the fault. And that's also where I believe you'll find the ultimate reason for why these two guys departed.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #22 by timewarp
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:15:15 PM
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wow,you guys who complained, I hope your happy. You took two happy men with a passion for what they do and they crushed their spirits, I hated the Mass Effect 3 ending but if fucking happens, stories get made, sometimes the stories suck but to go to the level you went to? I happy your fucking happy. I sure as hell am not.

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #23 by Creepter
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:23:24 PM
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@16
You're just the kind of poisonous fuck that I was refering to.

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #24 by Creepter
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:24:50 PM
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And obviously I meant to direct that at #22.
Oops. >.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #25 by timewarp
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:26:02 PM
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@21

Good the feeling's mutual. You might not have been the whole reason but it sounds like you drove the final nail. You can be angry, you can be upset and YES you have ever right to ask for a change to the game maybe if gamers had asked Bioware would have been more then happy. But that was not asking and damn well wasn't respectable.

No I don't blame you. I blame the people who when given the choice, decided to attack somebody and make it personal, I've made a game myself. It is nowhere near the size of Mass Effect 3 but let me tell you something if somebody was to mock it, that'd break me. That was a couple of months and it just makes me think, if it'd put that much work into two or three years. I don't think I'd have it in me to go to work everyday and make another game knowing that for all my hard work, people were willing to make death threats to me over one little thing.

It was a bad ending, it was a bad game and YES it was bad DLC. But that didn't mean we had to be bad fans.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #26 by timewarp
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:34:45 PM
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@24
Do I do something wrong? I guess it's only right that your spew hatred at me till I quit the site since that's how you roll

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #27 by Creepter
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 05:53:55 PM
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#26
I spew hatred at nobody. When I say that people who have your kind of reasoning - apologists who blames THE FANS for a company's failings - can all go fuck themselves then I say that without any hatred. The first thing you did on this page was blame "us". Thus I stand by what I said about people like you.

Idiots blame fan for this when everything can be traced back to Bioware's behavior, statements and to how they handled this mess.

 
Forum Posts: 7
Comment #28 by Fantod Megrim
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 07:39:46 PM
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My life is validated because I comment.

 
Forum Posts: 0
Comment #29 by TALESHUNTER1
Friday, September 28, 2012 @ 09:45:29 PM
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Well, personally I didn't think that ME3's ending ruined the game. It certainly wouldn't count as good, but I would still buy the game even if I knew about the ending beforehand.
What I think developers should do in these type of games is before starting the game you get to choose between two options, a canon mode and a player mode. Canon mode basically predetermines all the choices, hence telling the story the developers themselves want to tell, while player mode allows the players to choose the choices themselves. Not only will the developers get to tell their own story without pissing people off, players will be happy that they get to create their own story as well. And about SW:KOTOR, idk since I didn't play it. I hope those two will find jobs soon.
btw, Hey Kyle! Didn't know you were on this website.

 
Forum Posts: 1492
Comment #30 by SoPoF
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 12:29:34 AM
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@29: They would still have to write and include the options to choose from in "player mode". Don't see much of a difference to how it's been done, what you suggest is basically them picking, for instance, the destroy ending and saying that's the canonic one. Besides, if they really pick one way to go as the canonic story through the game, I'd somehow feel like I'm not playing the "real" story when I make my own decisions, which would be very obvious in a sequel in which nothing I did mattered because they'd continue the canonic story.

 
Forum Posts: 284
Comment #31 by drkrZEN
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 12:30:39 AM
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Put more effort into your work and you won't get negative criticism that you can't handle. Granted, I would have still bought (on sale) and enjoyed ME3, had I known about the ending beforehand... hell, my friend told me how much of a disappointment it was midway through the game, and I still had fun, but ME3 pales in comparison to ME2 much in the same way that DAII does to DA:O.

It's obvious BioWare is hitting some sort of slump that they need to get out of ASAP... so, again, create quality product, please your fans and you won't have to... retire. >_>

 
Forum Posts: 187
Comment #32 by Exodusdoomsday
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 01:02:18 AM
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Let's try not point fingers at each other,and let us try to calm down please. Personally i may have not played Mass Effect series, but i have seen my friends play these games.

I personally believe though that it is both the founders of Bioware and EA themselves. I think Bioware gave too much in the deal with EA allowing control of a date and time, and for that it is Bioware's fault, but with EA forcing Bioware to come out with the game on a strict schedule and date and not giving enough time to create the ending they wanted to do, it caused fan backlash.

I think personally Bioware's founders have the right to say what's on their mind even if it is not true, and opinionated at best. I am certain down the road when the dust settles Bioware's founders will apologise and the fans will accept it and we can move on with our lives. It happens more times than most people think.

 
Forum Posts: 7180
Comment #33 by DarkStar83x
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 02:36:47 AM
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I don't know what to make of this...

 
Forum Posts: 586
Comment #34 by Shirokurou
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 03:03:19 AM
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Well, hey. When you sign off something that causes negativity... what can I say, it's your fault.
Hell, Kojima got death threats and you don't see the guy quitting.

I personally blame EA.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #35 by timewarp
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 05:34:47 AM
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@27
I blame people like you because you handled things awfully. You had a choice and you choice to attack Bioware with non stop personal attacks, yes you paid $60 for the game but you had no right to react the way you did. There's a line and everyone of you danced over that line this year.

I can't believe the attitude you and your peers have. Two men quit their jobs because of this. It's not about a fucking video game anymore, it's not that you were wrong, it's that you don't seem to have the slightest bit of empathy of pity or even sadness towards these men. No they quit because of money, they quit so they can ruin some other games franchise. If they didn't want a conversation it was because the overall people didn't really want one. They wanted to yell at Bioware because their perfect little video game wasn't so perfect.

I didn't like the ending. I'm not crying a single tear over Mass Effect or Bioware. But there's two guys? Greg Zeschuck and Ray Muzyka. They deserved better then this.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #36 by timewarp
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 05:44:06 AM
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@32

The thing is I think everyone involved has a reason to be angry. It's not that nobody can voice their opinions or don't have a right to be annoyed about Mass Effect but how it came out was just vile, Bioware had a bad ending, really that happens. How many other franchises out there have had a bad ending like the Alien franchise (Alien 4 sounds bad altogether). My opinion really is you can be angry and annoyed even but to lash out so much it causes two people to quit? The founders of the company even? That's when you've crossed the line.

The upsetting thing is when people read what Oster talks about how Ray and Greg felt about the whole situation and people ignore it like it's an excuse, you know I'm going into video games and this worries me all the time. It scares me so much, I've got ideas as big as Mass Effect and to me those ideas are so important to me, I know how crushed I'd be if my game was made and the fans did to me what some of you guys did to Bioware. For a games designer that sounds like something you can't recover from.

 
Forum Posts: 187
Comment #37 by Exodusdoomsday
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 07:02:21 AM
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@#36

I see you're point, but it is kind of on both sides in my opinion, i mean when you truly think about it, do you think it was more of a deadline issue and the fact that the creators could not find a good enough ending at the time?

I know how it is with the fan base, but i would not blame all of the fan base. To be honest i think the founders are just mentally exhausted from this whole fan base backlash thing and especially with EA, that they are going to do something else with a brand new company, and some people will jump ship with them.

Honestly if it was just the fan base only, i still think they would have stayed and let it go. But with my history of knowing EA, they usually have a tendency to destroy great companies with unique visions and excellent story telling and their creators/founders from the inside out. By adding unrealistic dates and forcing developers to make it on a date rather than giving them time to finish the game, which then causes the fans to be angry at the creators not knowing that they have to do things on a set date, instead of having a relaxed timely release where maybe they could delay for a few months to patch things and to finish up the game.

Here is an example of what EA has destroyed. Westwood studios(creators of Command and Conquer,Dune) the creators and designers left after a few years,Maxis(creators of the Sim City/Sim series) i believe the same thing happened as well. Not to be offensive, but Bioware will be on the list next, due to their founders leaving, and most likely their developers will follow suit and it will be an empty shell of Bioware.

 
Forum Posts: 2783
Comment #38 by yewjhin
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 07:09:50 AM
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@36

You're a game designer? You've got big dreams? big ideas? big visions? BIG DEAL. Here's a truth: Everyone has them - dreams, ideas. What makes a game designer's dreams so unique that it should be immune to criticism?

You know what the problem is with some people who work in the creative arts & design industry (cough: designers, artists, musicians, film producers etc? When some of this people have their work criticize, they go up in arms and says the public is negative, fans are unappreciative and so on. Then there are those who throw down their hats and quit.

Why don't you try being an Engineer or Scientist? Us engineers design buildings, highways, safety protections systems, chemical refineries, manufacturing plants and so on. Do you think we throw down and back out if a customer/public/investor/government criticizes the design? You think we throw down the towel and say "oh we quit, we're not interested in doing this safety protection system anymore" because somebody said its not feasible? No we don't, we go back to the drawing board and think again. Because if that safety system isn't there, who knows how many injuries or worse - fatalities?

Just cause Bioware has a number of previous critical successes doesn't make it immune to criticism. If you decide on something that you probably already know isn't going to sit well with your customers, you better be damn well ready to receive a lashback. You're on your way out if you don't have the willpower and mental strength to endure and learn from experience.

When someone criticizes your work - there's only 3 ways to you can respond:
1. Easy way - Throw in the towel, surrender, give excuses and say its the other parties fault you've lost motivation/interest/passion and whatever shit that drives you.
2. Hard way - Take in the comments both soft and rough ones. Learn from it, make a better effort and hopefully better product.
3. Hermit's way - Ignore everything and continue doing things you way.

To me, these 2 guys are only taking the easy way out.

 
Forum Posts: 290
Comment #39 by ChrisBalrog
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 07:49:06 AM
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Well, ME3 pretty much ruined the ME series for me. It wasn't just the ending that was bad, the overall was mediocre at best.

They deserved that and I actually hope they don't find a new job in time for the Holidays, so they can't afford buying gifts for their children and continue to disapoint everyone around them.

 
Forum Posts: 69
Comment #40 by DarkestBOO
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 08:22:42 AM
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lmao they are full grown men. toughen up? or an even crazier idea... stop reading every complaint posted by mouth breathers over the internet? no matter what you do on this earth, you can find some fat sweaty kids who are willing to complain about it on the net. i thought this was all covered in jay and silent bob strike back?

 
Forum Posts: 8369
Comment #41 by PainOfDemise
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 08:25:18 AM
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I just recently finished ME3 and saw the original ending and now I understand the uproar over it. It really was horrible and a MAJOR disappointment to anyone who would of played the series through it all. Games rarely disappoint me, but that ended sure did. I honestly can't believe they ended it the way they did. I think they were so wrapped up in their game that they were blinded by what they were doing.

 
Forum Posts: 42
Comment #42 by Coudicini
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 09:39:45 AM
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'to anyone who would HAVE played the series'. sorry, this is becoming the new your and you're of forum typing.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #43 by timewarp
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 11:01:06 AM
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1 - No I'm not a games designer, I swear I say this all the time I'm working towards it (It'd be easier if meeting with my development team wasn't so difficult)
2 - It's like they say you need passion in your game, how else are you going to slave away for years at a time
3 - You know what the difference is between my job and yours? Your job, you create something and as long as it's standing at the end of the day you've done a good job. If it's ok then that's fine but for a games designer? Your creating something for someone else, my point isn't that an idea like mine or bioware is NOT up for criticism, of course it is and I welcome it. If I wasn't so afraid of having my ideas stolen I'd put them all up here for your criticism, you might even help improve my ideas (I'm personally a strong believe that no one person can make a good video game and that if I did then yes I would make bad video games) but some people wanted to make this personal, they wanted to take it beyond a bad idea.

I am fine. FINE with anyone telling me I have a bad idea, you know I've had tons of them and I won't lie, I haven't sold a game. I'm not into pretending I'm an actual games designer, I'm not the hipster "Well I'm a games designer in that I want to be a games designer" type.

So no I don't think anything is beyond criticism, I think the best thing about society and humanity as a whole is the ability to apply criticism to anything and to ignore it in my own work or the work of anyone else would not only damage it but there's a line. It shouldn't be personal, Never personal. That's taking things too far and that I can't stand.

 
Forum Posts: 372
Comment #44 by nycking
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 01:23:12 PM
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Oh here's an update for concerning all this:
https://twitter.com/RayMuzyka/status/251808783104364545

 
Forum Posts: 2783
Comment #45 by yewjhin
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 02:18:42 PM
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@43

We create something that's just standing? We're not creating it for just someone? Let's take the Architecture profession then, or Mechanical Design.

Some Architect must've come up with the design of the White House. Some mechanical engineer must have came up with the blueprint of a Lamborghini. Some engineer must've been responsible for coming up with safety design of the mass-recalled Toyotas in US.

Is the White House not inhabited by your president, the head of your government? Is the Lamborghini not designed for human use? Are pharmaceutical factories not designed with the purpose of manufacturing drugs for human use? What happens if the white house collapses? Or the Lamborghini's brakes don't work at high speeds? Or the drug machines end up producing off-spec products and result in shock reactions/allergies in patients?

Are their products not designed for someone else? You think that the Toyota's engineers who designed for that mass-recalled model didn't suffer any embarassment or criticism for his design (or lack of) of the car's safety? Heck he probably got fired instead of having the freedom to choose when to quit/retire.

The consequences and quality (or lack of) our work is far greater than you give us credit for.

 
Forum Posts: 2783
Comment #46 by yewjhin
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 02:30:03 PM
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Well I've gone off-topic, but really, my point is - just because you've had criticism come your way it doesn't give you an excuse to quit.

This is so much more apparent in the creative arts & design industry than any other industry i've seen.

 
Forum Posts: 1492
Comment #49 by SoPoF
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 04:06:36 PM
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I love how everyone is upset and blaming either EA for being evil and sucking the life out of the two guys or the fans for ... being evil and sucking the life out of the two guys, when all they actually said (and is so far the only officially confirmed statement about them quitting their jobs): "Hey, thanks for everything, but we kind of want to make some beer now instead." (Or at least one of them wants to make beer.)

Truth is, none of us have any idea about why they don't want to make videogames any longer, so why don't you stop tossing the blame ball to and fro until there's a definite answer?

 
Forum Posts: 35
Comment #50 by KuroiShichi
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 06:36:45 PM
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@49

No greater truth has ever been spoken my friend. Thank you.

OT: I could care less if our criticism is the reason for their quitting or not. And yes, it's a damn shame they quit over this. My problem is, don't expect us to be happy with a mediocre ending to not just one game, but a trilogy! We didn't just spend 60 dollars on one game, we spent it on three games, told our choices mattered, then nothing mattered. You honestly can't tell me, that a 180+ dollar investment, isn't worth anything better than the original ending. Anyone who thinks that, is clearly messed up in the head.

 
Forum Posts: 174
Comment #51 by Valkyrious
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 08:54:54 PM
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@49
I kind of would slap the blame on the fans because they were the ones who put the pressure on the developers about how "bad" the endings were. I thought that the endings were great and that it was a great way to end the series.

 
Forum Posts: 155
Comment #52 by skinfanfromIL
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 09:32:57 PM
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@49 I agree with everything you said.

@48 Are you related to one of the founders? You seem to be emotionally invested in defending them and criticizing fans.

OT: I don't give a fuck why these guys retired. It's over so move on.

Hopefully, Bioware can get its act together and reverse some of the damage that has been done to the company in the last year.

 
Forum Posts: 387
Comment #53 by ENAYSOFT
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 10:57:47 PM
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Nice, plan it all on the fans.

 
Forum Posts: 154
Comment #54 by SideQuestShane
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 10:59:42 PM
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That's too bad. I didn't really like the ending but I'm playing through it again on insanity and loving it all over. Wondering if the lavaiathin dlc is worth it though.

 
Forum Posts: 387
Comment #55 by ENAYSOFT
Saturday, September 29, 2012 @ 10:59:51 PM
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Bad workers blame their tools.
The baddest workers blame their customers.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #56 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 05:27:46 AM
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@52

Nope. I'm not criticizing the fans, the one who simply stated they didn't like the game I'm ok with, like I said it's ok to attack the game because the ending was bad. What I'm not ok with is the people who started the personal attacks, that was uncalled for and I do blame them for what happened, yeah you can say these two guys should have ignored it and moved on.

But for some people that's hard, it's hard to ignore something like that, trust me I know. It's easy for certain people to just say get over it but their applying their own lives to the situation, their assuming these two men find it as easy to get over something as they do. As someone who finds it hard to get over personal insults, I know it's difficult to just get over something. I've got nothing against anyone here (except Creepter) and I'm sure some of you think I do but I don't. The only people I have a problem with again are the people who had to go beyond insulting a video game and went personal with this. Why couldn't it just be complaining about a video game?

I may seem like I'd defend Bioware to the death but I'm never the type to just openly defend anyone for no reason. But to me it's not a company we're going against, it's just two games designers and yeah maybe since that's my dream job and the one thing I've been aiming for maybe I do have a personal take in this since one day that could be me in Ray or Greg's place.

 
Forum Posts: 1419
Comment #58 by Psikorps
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 07:52:10 AM
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I waited awhile before posting to this, wanted to see replies...

After scouring the web for several hours to see various opinions on this "story" across several blogs, forums and so on, it seems that reason and logic are to blame for their leaving. Period.

By that, its now clear that the "real" reason they left BioWare is because of the reason and logic behind the system of what exactly creates "fans" to begin with and how that system can backfire when you take it for granted.

BioWare gained fans by expanding on stories and delivering high quality content and maintaining the quality of what was developed, only to, in the last installment, pour out a lame ending to a franchise that took 5+ years of choices and decisions and story development and sundered the previous quality by reducing it all down to a simple choice of color.

The fans had a right to expect and even demand more (nothing to do with entitlement, but CONSISTANCY.

It was a striptease that was supposed to have a happy ending that turned out to be nothing more than a transvestite in a blue, green or red thong...you get to choose, but no matter the choice, you know whats gonna be waiting for you...

Fans from the last several years were slapped in the face, simple as that.
The poor two guys who left knew they had little recourse, because if they ended up staying, it may hurt future sales, as previous "fans" would say...remember Mass Effect 3, are you sure you wanna buy from BioWare again?

They stepped down, like the heads of other companies do when they make piss-poor choices and start to screw over their companies, the majority stock holders or board of directors, ect...step in and say, the risk is too great to have you stay, step down with some dignity or we have to release you.

The logic and reason are simple enough for anyone to see, it has NOTHING to do with "fan negativity".

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #59 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 08:21:03 AM
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@57

You know what Creepter I kind of assumed if you WASN'T part of the group that hadn't given out the personal insults about the guys working for bioware you wouldn't count yourself in that group. I thought I made myself 100% clear that I had no beef with Mass Effect fans as a whole, heck I'm a fan of the game, I myself complained about the endings. They were tame and as somebody who dabbles in creating stories a lot I felt there was so much potential lose in that ending. I wanted something with more emotion, something that'd say THIS IS MASS EFFECT, THIS IS EVERYTHING COMMANDER SHEPARD IS SACRIFICING HIMSELF FOR. I didn't get what I wanted, the way I see things you for instance wanted something different.

If you didn't take things personally, if you just complained then I'm sorry that I made you feel like I was attacking you. That's not on you. THAT is on me and I'm sorry for that. I'm not retracting, I just don't like attacking someone for doing nothing wrong and yes I did take things too personal (I like to think I'm a smart enough person I can learn from my mistakes not that your dumb in comparison).

But I stand by my main reason. Things were taken too personal. Should they have quit over this? Hell no, Ray and Greg should come back. They did nothing wrong. It's got nothing to do with Fan Negativity because the people who caused them to quit are not fans. Again if you think I counted you in that then your wrong and AGAIN I blame myself for that for not making myself more clear.

Also when I say it's personal for me, I mean in comparing their situation to mine, Nothing more, nothing less. I don't know these people but I know if I was in that situation I'd take it personally. Again though for the fifth or sixth time since you seem to assume the opposite. Everything is up for debate and criticism. Mass Effect and my so called big ideas (let's be honest until you guys see my games up there, I'm not really a games designer)

 
Forum Posts: 1492
Comment #60 by SoPoF
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 08:22:03 AM
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Creepter, I think you could be more polite. ;) Anyways, I don't remember having seen any actual personal attacks or insults towards Zeschuck and Muzyka and quite frankly, I assume at least 95% of the "negative fans" haven't even known them before this, so I don't see where all this "the fans were so mean to them, they couldn't stand it any longer" talk comers from.

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #61 by Creepter
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 08:50:08 AM
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I haven't seen any attacks directed at the two either, which is partially the reason why I objected to Timewarp's... "poorly educated theory and behavior", to put it as politely as possible. I frequented the BSN a lot back then and I don't recall ever seeing any attacks against the two.
It just felt like such an alien thing to claim.

Now, had the news said that it was Casey Hudson and Mac Walters who had stepped down because of fan negativity then I could've understood it. Because those two have (rightfully) taken a lot of slack and are widely seen, as far as what I've seen on the BSN, as the two main "villains" responsible for the ending fiasco.

But even if that had been the case, I still would've called Timewarp what I have called him a few times already. Because it still wouldn't be the fans fault. If you do a poor job and your customers complains about it, those complaints are justified. It's never the customers fault.


Anyways, I don't see how this whole big argument will lead us anywhere good...

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #62 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 08:53:32 AM
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It's ok SoPof. Personally I feel I should have made myself more clear about who I was referring to. I'm just here to debate but it seems to me that Creepter thinks I'm attacking him over something he didn't do, that I'm saying he has no right to complain (of course he does). Regardless of anyone's intent here I think you were right from the beginning. We all (myself included) took turns at blaming each other for something and I'm ashamed to say in a way I perhaps started that here.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #63 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 08:56:07 AM
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@61

So now I'm poorly educated? You don't know anything about me so how about you don't pretend to know anything about me and I'll extend the same gratitude to you. If this big argument won't led anywhere good would you mind explaining how you decided it'd be wise to mock someone by calling them uneducated?

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #64 by Creepter
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 09:01:19 AM
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"poorly educated theory and behavior" was the politer way of saying "Fucking idiot", not an actual dig at your brain-skills. >.>
Sheesh.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #65 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 09:08:38 AM
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There's no polite way of saying fucking idiot. Don't talk to me like I'm beneath you. You have a weird way of saying you don't want an argument you know but I guess you weren't planning on ending the argument now were you? I'll repeat myself AGAIN though for the sake of fucking clarity. I NEVER ACCUSED YOU OF ANYTHING. YOU? CREEPTER? NOTHING.

 
Forum Posts: 6
Comment #66 by Creepter
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 09:11:35 AM
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Alright, I'm washing my hands of this crap.
This isn't going to go anywhere.

 
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Comment #67 by timewarp
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 09:20:48 AM
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Fine. Act like your better then me. God knows I don't need to talk to someone like you anyway.

 
Forum Posts: 151
Comment #68 by demoplay86
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 10:53:51 AM
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To everyone who is gonna hate on a developer for making a game they don't like. Maybe if you did your research better, didn't buy a pre-order before you know what the game is like and didn't just assume everything sucks, you wouldn't be out $60. Also, if it sucks that bad, take it back in the week you buy it and get a refund. If you can't do that, you deserve to be out $60.
ME3 being the third in a trilogy should have had to top the last two games, and in a sense it did. But nothing is good enough for people these days.
Also, maybe SWTOR sucked because MMOs get old FAST..
It's your choice how you game and if you're going to let a game you bought without an informed decision fill your world with an angry obsession to the point where you're going to send death threats and have a cry on the internet, then you are a sad pathetic little fuck.

Like I said, if you didn't like it, take it back or cancel your subscription and simply say "It sucked" to people that give a shit.
People's taste these days doesn't count for shit really anyways.
I remember back when if a game sucked, you played it anyway or sold the fucking thing >_>

Long story short, don't buy shit games. =/

 
Forum Posts: 2783
Comment #69 by yewjhin
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 11:02:36 AM
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@68

Maybe if YOU did YOUR research better, you would know that not every country in the world operates like Gamestop or Gamewhatever in the US where you have the option to get a refund for your newly bought games because you felt it sucks.


 
Forum Posts: 155
Comment #70 by skinfanfromIL
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 11:10:41 AM
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@56 I misunderstood you. I thought you were criticizing fans that bitched about ME3 and SWTOR.

Instead you were criticizing the trolls and psychotic fans that take it way too far.

I think you are little too emotionally invested in this, but it is understandable since working on games is your career choice.

 
Forum Posts: 23
Comment #71 by DarthSnake90
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 03:54:21 PM
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People, lets be real here. Bioware's recent games have definitely
been nowhere near their best work. But, both games felt like a severe let down. Mainly because Bioware made promises about both games, and did not deliver. Instead what we got were games that felt watered down and rushed. Mass effect went from an RPG with a great story to a 3rd person shooter with plot holes and sex robots. I did not want the founders to retire because of dissatisfied fans. However IMO, the mature thing to do instead of quitting would be to take that criticism, and fix it! Go back to your roots, it is as easy as that.

 
Forum Posts: 1052
Comment #72 by Banacheckfps
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 06:03:31 PM
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Poeple moaning over an ending to a game is pathetic, not one of you moaned like you did with ME3 when most people got sold a game they could not hardly play with Skyrim. So using the fact that you brought a game gives you the right to moan over the ending is also pathetic when you look at it that way. Also Bioware did not have to make free DLC but they did, they didn't just leave over this but i bet like they said this add too them leaving because no matter what they did the moaners would of still moaned a bit like they did do about the free DLC agian pathetic.

 
Forum Posts: 1335
Comment #73 by Zz-Supremacy-zZ
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 06:55:55 PM
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Mass Effect 3
Its the writer who made the ending unacceptable and incomplete I mean come on its the end of a series make the ending acceptable.

Example of a well(Not extrordinary but Acceptable and you can live with it) ended Trilogy: Gears of War

 
Forum Posts: 151
Comment #74 by demoplay86
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 10:39:06 PM
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@69
I don't live in the US so nice assumption.
Also I don't have gamestop here neither. Maybe in future you should wait for a review. Then if the game sucks inspite of the review, you can blame the ones who reviewed it.
And if YOU did YOUR research instead of EMPHASIZING your ACCUSATIONS you wouldn't have a problem. I don't have to return games because I only get games I like. And if by chance I did get something I didn't like, i'd trade it in or sell it on ebay.

 
Forum Posts: 151
Comment #75 by demoplay86
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 10:43:28 PM
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@72
You make a good point. Bethesda screw their fans over with nearly every game they release, yet only a fraction of as many people are having a cry. Being generally emo and making violent threats over it.
People need to grow the fuck up.
Moaning over the ending of the game is one way to see that a sequel NEVER gets made.

 
Forum Posts: 349
Comment #76 by maiku1
Sunday, September 30, 2012 @ 11:02:30 PM
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When an artist draws a picture and someone doesn't like it, they shouldn't have to redraw it. Its BS that they'd have to change it to please their "fans." If you were really a fan, you'd accept it for what it was, good ending or not. I just beat ME3 last night and idk which ending I got whether it was the original or improved but what I liked the most was that it wrapped up what happened to the characters that I've been following for 2-3 games.

We just lost a good game developer that could have given us a new series to love. I hope he goes solo and opens his own company.

 
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Comment #77 by yewjhin
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 12:02:16 AM
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@74

And maybe if YOU were SMARTER like how you keep CLAIMING TO BE, you would know that reviews are NOT the BE-ALL and END-ALL. Reviews are the opinions of ONE PERSON. Should we all start using IGN reviews now? Your reviews? So we'll all follow YOUR tastes?

Amazingly stupid.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #78 by timewarp
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 05:00:56 AM
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You know yewjkin that's not just IGN. There's also Gamespot, Gamesrader, Gametrailers, PS3Trophies, Playstation Lifestyle (Granted if it's a PS3 game) then there's the tons of gaming magazines out there (Although if you gonna buy all of them depends on how much you care or how much money you earn)so there's enough reviews out there to get on overall idea of how good a game is.

You can tell if a review is good most of the time because the things the critic says are wrong are actually wrong (you can tell by cross-examining the reviews for inconsistency). Although Demoplay are you honestly saying a review has NEVER led you astray? Not even once? You must like every game out there or either be very lucky. Come on there must have been at least one time where IGN said a game was good which turned out to be crap for you at least.

 
Forum Posts: 152
Comment #79 by wheatley
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 05:16:59 AM
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I'm sure they're happy to have made a mark on the games industry and want to leave it at that. I don't think it has anything to do with fan negativity. If every early retirement was caused by that, wouldn't most of the games industry be dead by now haha

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #80 by timewarp
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 06:21:42 AM
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@79
Good point but I don't think fan negativity caused that well not simply fan negativity. Simply complains didn't cause this but the psychos and trolls like SkinfanfromIl pointed out. If you quit something just because somebody said they didn't like it they'd be quite sad and well it'd only prove you didn't quite have your heart in it in the first place and that applies to everything in life not just video games.

But the guys I'm talking about what people like Creepter just don't get is the guys who took it to the extreme, went to insane levels to say "I don't like your video game". What I've been getting at is that it's easy to say it to someone else, when it's you. When like they said themselves it has your name or your company name for some people that can be hard to tune out and yes if your not that kind of person it must feel stupid, you must be thinking "Well surely I'd just forget" but it really is that hard.

If Ray and Greg are like that then maybe they do want to tune it out, maybe for them leaving the company was the only way to do that.

 
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Comment #81 by yewjhin
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 09:39:06 AM
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@78

You can have 10 Major Review sources saying the game is a critical success, cream of crop, best in the series, no flaws whatsoever (ala ME3, Skyrim, GTA) and a person can still dislike the game.

You can have 10 Major Review sources saying a game is a massive failure saying this is a flaw that is a flaw but still like the game.

 
Forum Posts: 151
Comment #82 by demoplay86
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 12:59:48 PM
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@yewjhin
Don't be a moron dude.
Obviously if you go off one review you'd be pretty stupid. I meant exactly what Timewarp said. You check around and check for inconsistencies. Watch some trailers, gameplay vids. Ask your friends if they've played it and what it was like. Get a fucking clue before you go out a spend a heap of cash. Especially if the price of the game is worth sending out death threats over for ffs.
And yeah, it is directly down to taste. Hence why you check up on it.
If I watch a gameplay vid and it looks fun, reviews say it is fun and it gets 8/10 75% of the time reviews-wise, odds are.. it's gonna be fun.
All I was saying is make an informed choice if you're going to cry over money spent and if you read up on reviews that say it's good when it isn't, then you can point the finger at the people who did the reviews rather then send a bunch of deaths threats and demand a story made by someone else be changed to suit you better.

@Timewarp
Of course reviews have lead me astray. They've told me FFXIII was good and Demon Souls was bad =/ Regardless, I didn't have a big old cry about it and demand it be changed (FFXIII)
Instead I looked at vids for most of my games and yeah, most of the time I get something I appreciate. If not, it went towards trade in and a title that met my quota of awesome.

People just need to not be dicks.
If people didn't like the end of the story for ME3, then they were quite simply not fans of that particular installment. Stomping your feet and demanding it be changed to because it's not what you wanted is fucking childish and retarded. I bet not a single person stopped to think that maybe there was a purpose for the way it ended. No one gave time for another sequel or a prequel. Instead it was just "NOOOOOOO!!!! I'LL FUCKING KILL THE DEVELOPERS!! CHANGE IT NOW!!! *cuts wrist*

Like seriously, grow the hell up =/

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #83 by timewarp
Monday, October 01, 2012 @ 03:05:59 PM
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@78
True but the review isn't just about the score, I mean I think if you read the review you can get a gist of what the game entails that being said I think every games company out there owes it to their potential fans to put out a demo for their game, makes it easier for us to tell if we're gonna like something.

@82
I didn't just have that argument with Creepter to be accused of the very thing you are accusing me of right now. I didn't like the ending but I didn't throw a tantrum over it, yeah I thought it'd be great if they did change the ending or extend it but I wasn't so concerned over it happening that I was going to threaten anyone. In fact go back and check my last ton of posts, I mean the ones where I attack the very people your comparing me to right now.

Also when I said haven't you ever been led astray I didn't mean "Have you ever played a bad video game and started screaming bloody mercy over it" I just meant surely haven't you ever played a game and thought "Wow, IGN said it was good but it turns out I don't like the game, that sucks!"

It doesn't matter about how much percent the game gets, I mean read the context. Does the gameplay sound fun to you? Do they compare it to anything else if so did you like that game? The end all is always going to be gameplay itself though so I think basically: YOUR BOTH RIGHT. A little bit of what you've both said is what is needed here. Look at the reviews, find out about what the game is by looking around and researching but sometimes actually playing the game is what counts. That? Well it'd help if the guys making the games actually gave us a demo.

Stuff like storyline, what everybody complained about that's not Bioware's fault since it's based on opinion. What I like might not be what you like. I don't think we can complain about storyline. Since it's an aspect that can be good and bad at the same time.

 
Forum Posts: 307
Comment #84 by spoonman
Tuesday, October 02, 2012 @ 02:04:30 PM
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Facebook and Twitter let you communicate directly with these people, but as we see here, it's not always a good thing. As with reviews and feedback, people tend to be more motivated when they are angry or annoyed by something. Just check out Amazon reviews if you don't believe it.

The trouble is too many people don't think about what they say might actually hurt someone's feelings. These guys were pouring their heart and soul into these games only to have some troll crap all over it because they weren't happy about the ending. Negativity spreads like wildfire.

 
Forum Posts: 11
Comment #85 by timewarp
Wednesday, October 03, 2012 @ 06:37:41 AM
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see when I talk to the development teams or the publishers, I only ever have nice things to say, even companies like Activision who people who know me well know I hate to a vengeance. I hate Activision NOT the people who work for Activision, heck even if I met Robert Kotick in person I'd have NOTHING but nice things to say to the man.

Not because of he's influence in the industry but I wouldn't feel right being rude to a man who has done nothing to me. That's not right and it's certainly not the way we should behave. I think Ray and Greg should come back, I'd like for them to come back. I don't think the majority of people meant for this to happen, I think I was so angry at people I didn't think about that. Some people just like you said don't realize how much their words can hurt but I think if they were to come back Ray and Greg would get that nobody hates them personally. Just the games.

 
Forum Posts: 10
Comment #87 by MembraneParadigm
Friday, October 19, 2012 @ 02:00:26 AM
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Can we just remember how awesome ME1 and ME2 were?

 
Forum Posts: 18
Comment #88 by Subterfuge
Thursday, October 25, 2012 @ 05:01:32 PM
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Now if only Roger Goodell would follow suit...

 
Forum Posts: 67
Comment #89 by Sanador62
Thursday, December 06, 2012 @ 02:13:05 PM
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I just hope they realize that for every person complaining loudly on the internet, there's 19 people having a blast playing their games. They did the RPG scene a tremendous service since the original Baldurs Gate, and I salute these guys and wish them well. BTW ME3 was so much better than Diablo 3. I don't recall seeing a petition to fix that.

 
Forum Posts: 840
Comment #90 by kensredemption
Tuesday, December 11, 2012 @ 02:19:02 PM
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@ #1:

Go fuck yourself, you pus-riddled cunt.


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Game Info
Developer:
Bioware
Publisher:
Electronic Arts
Genre:

Release:

US March 06, 2012
Europe March 09, 2012
Japan March 15, 2012

Resolution: 480p, 720p
Sound: Dolby Digital 5.1
Players: 1
Online Players : 2-4
ESRB: Mature
Collection:1229
Wishlist:233
 
 
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