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Dumbest moves


Cold Fusion

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Before I start my rant, I'm going to ask everybody that reads this one single question, how stupid do you think some characters are?

 

The reason I ask this is because recently I was playing Resident Evil 5 with my wife, and at that part where you have to turn on the conceiver belt, and have to go all the way around, it dawned on me how stupid, and lazy that part actually was.

 

You see, why the hell go around the knee hight metal bars, if you could simply just hop over it? and this happens often in this game, stupid detours, that shouldn't be detours. Doors that you could shoot the lock off, jump a wall or fence, push over a bin and climb a bin or even just move the lightest of all crates out of the way.

 

There are other games out there, take for instance Oblivion, or Skyrim, Mass Effect, or even Uncharted. these games give you the option of jumping cover, and these games pretty much range in their genre (sorta at least), while Resident Evil should be survival horror (meaning it's a shooter with zombies), yet these military trained people, can't jump a simple fence.

 

I know people bring up these subjects often, but still, why on earth can some characters perform the most basic moves, while others seem to struggle with the simplest of obstacles. While in one cutscene shows your character doing some superhuman moves, the next they can't even move past a simple ledge.

 

i'm sorry, but why the hell do game developers still bother with these stupid obstacles. why on earth can't they get a clue, stop making these lazy level designs, and develop some decent invisible walls, actual reasons why you can't jump the fence. the games that seem to suffer from this the most, seem to be horror games for some reason. it seems that the darker a game gets, the lazier the design becomes.

 

but it doesn't even stop there, take Pokémon (yes, Pokémon), why can't your character just jump that small ledge, using his freaking pokémon. he her she carries monsters that could dwarf a house for heavens sake, why can't you just use these things anywhere? rpg also suffer from these problems. you can create the most powerfull fire magic spells out there, even create a freaking earthquake or tornado...fuck, you can even summon meteors or some demon god or whatever...but that door locked from the other side...fuck me, that's beyond your characters power...no, you have to find that one key to get through that one door, to pull a lever, that opens the door, only to find...dumb dumb dumb!...another freaking door.

 

I know a game would be too easy otherwise, but why can't your characters use their skills i game, why can't they use whatever knowledge they have in the actual level design. Even a game like God of War can't escap this. In one scene you see Kratos using his blades to chop some big rock demon to pieces, the next he can't even seem to break a single door. how fucking lazy can one be? if you over power your character in one place, then why do you have to weaken him in the next?

 

or let's take that example even further. god of war has sequels, why the hell remove all you powers at the start of every game, to only have to win them back at some point. Mass Effect does this the best to my taste, they just increase the levels, and then expand on your abilities. It seems to just be about lazy development, restart everything from zero, and do the same again. Perhaps that is why some game sequels never seem to own up to their first installment, because the second one just does what the first one did, but then with less originallity.

 

there are exceptions to this obviously, and it should be noted that not all sequels are worse than their original, but still, I just can't get over how dumb some things are in games. dumb character moves create the worst road blocks, invisible walls or even obligated detours....

 

 

oh, and for those that played Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness, here's another lazy something "push this block, to gain extra strength", that way you can jump that extra 2 cm...by the end that last big jump, was so unrealistic, I just instantly had the thought of "what the fuck kind of crap is this". lazy!

 

 

sorry for the rant people, feel free to comment.

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Simple:

The more freedom you are given, the more likely you can do something, which isn't expected by developers and suddenly you are outside the world or exploit game mechanics. Horror games e.g. would lose much horror if can simply climb some crates and be above the zombie masses and take shots or swings at them while being unhittable.

If you want to climb the level-border fence, you expect some world behind it, but you weren't supposed to go there in the first place, so why should someone make this world?

It's an incredibla effort to anticipate every little thing a gamer might do and create an appropriate reaction.

For level borders there are bad examples and good examples. An exploring gamer will always find some invisisible walls / shitty borders but it's a games job to want you to follow the action and lay a visible, credible and logical path to the next point before you.

 

For the sequels:

It's to make games interessting. You have a difficulty-curve that a game follows and starting on "God"-Level in Part II leaves less room to actually make it more difficult or even interssting. If I defeated the Great-Evil-Who-Cannot-Be-Defeated" in Part I, who is my opponent in Part III? And who do I engange on my way to the endboss who is a challenge? This might work with RPGs with levels, but even then you have to consider how stupid it looks, because numbers inflate. Doing 1-5 damage to the everloved Giant Rat may be reasonable in the beginning, but doing 5k damage to a 300k HP-Giant Rat in Part IV while the Endboss of Part I only had 100k HP? Either this or you walk a world that your actions turned into hell because no it's roamed by high level Demons and Dragons.

Let's pretend we have a series which runs as long as Final Fantasy but with a coherent world and story. How do you expect to get new gamers for Part XIV? They will always feel like they missed the whole story and will have to recap it all. You will have to explain every skill you gave the charcters and introduce them on how to use it. What a fiery blades for? How to you activate them? What does this Shield? How to you use Magic? How do you use this secondary weapon, what is this other secondary weapon good for? How do you use this whip to climb and Fight? How do you use the Ultimate Finisher? ... things which are explained and experienced in natural progression, once they are available. If you can use them from start, you will have to explain all of it - which is a drag to both, new and experienced players. And what do you give the charcter this time to make the gamer feel like they accomplished something and progress?

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Simple:

The more freedom you are given, the more likely you can do something, which isn't expected by developers and suddenly you are outside the world or exploit game mechanics. Horror games e.g. would lose much horror if can simply climb some crates and be above the zombie masses and take shots or swings at them while being unhittable.

If you want to climb the level-border fence, you expect some world behind it, but you weren't supposed to go there in the first place, so why should someone make this world?

It's an incredibla effort to anticipate every little thing a gamer might do and create an appropriate reaction.

For level borders there are bad examples and good examples. An exploring gamer will always find some invisisible walls / shitty borders but it's a games job to want you to follow the action and lay a visible, credible and logical path to the next point before you.

 

Well yeah, I understand that, but there's a difference by making a maze, and just having the optiong to jump over it, and not having a reason why I'm not allowed to jump over it. Sure, a game needs it's boarders, I think everybody understands that, but by creating a maze (what fundamentally every single game is), you need a reason why you can't jump the wall. a knee high boarder, is a crappy designed wall, and not having a reason why I can't jump it, just seems stupid.

 

Take Silent Hill. Silent Hill's Harry Mason (the guy from the first) was an average guy, thrown into a not so average situation. I understand the limitations of that guy, can't use a gun right, can't run that long, not that athletic, etc. I understand why he can't climb a wall, and won't climb a wall. heck, I'm not gonna jump a wall in a game. but coming to a simple shrubbery that your character can't get over, is just stupid. even in survival horror, that seems like a weak part of the game. if the shrubbery was on fire, or sprouted some demonic tentacles a la evil dead or something, I could get it.

 

but if a game offers you the option to say take cover, or jump it, or something along those lines, they should keep it consistant, and not just have you jumping a gap at one time, and then not having your jump an even smaller gap the next time. that's just lazy devolopment.

 

For the sequels:

It's to make games interessting. You have a difficulty-curve that a game follows and starting on "God"-Level in Part II leaves less room to actually make it more difficult or even interssting. If I defeated the Great-Evil-Who-Cannot-Be-Defeated" in Part I, who is my opponent in Part III? And who do I engange on my way to the endboss who is a challenge? This might work with RPGs with levels, but even then you have to consider how stupid it looks, because numbers inflate. Doing 1-5 damage to the everloved Giant Rat may be reasonable in the beginning, but doing 5k damage to a 300k HP-Giant Rat in Part IV while the Endboss of Part I only had 100k HP? Either this or you walk a world that your actions turned into hell because no it's roamed by high level Demons and Dragons.

Let's pretend we have a series which runs as long as Final Fantasy but with a coherent world and story. How do you expect to get new gamers for Part XIV? They will always feel like they missed the whole story and will have to recap it all. You will have to explain every skill you gave the charcters and introduce them on how to use it. What a fiery blades for? How to you activate them? What does this Shield? How to you use Magic? How do you use this secondary weapon, what is this other secondary weapon good for? How do you use this whip to climb and Fight? How do you use the Ultimate Finisher? ... things which are explained and experienced in natural progression, once they are available. If you can use them from start, you will have to explain all of it - which is a drag to both, new and experienced players. And what do you give the charcter this time to make the gamer feel like they accomplished something and progress?

 

Well yeah, if your character has a god like power at the end, you'll be over powered in the next one. but how many games actually do this? take final fantasy X for instance (rpg), the sequel had you use an entirely different combat system than the previous one. While that shouldn't always be the case, it's a perfect way of getting around that problem.

 

or take soul reaver, in soul reaver you just gain newer powers than before, making the older ones obsolete, but you don't actually lose anything. your character just evolves, grows, becomes more than it's previous self. and by the end, even though you already have unholy powers to start with, they actually managed to give a decent reason why you had to lose certain aspects. upgrading the gameplay, changing some rules, etc. that's a lot better then some lazy attempt at just saying "nope, you lose it all, because we couldn't be bothered otherwise".

 

take the example you used of Final Fantasy. if a game would have fourteen installments of the same characters, people would be bored with it constantly having to recent, people would actually expect something new and original. having 14 of the same games come out, with the same characters, and no actual evolution, no thank you. New people would try to play it, but get bored with it all the same.

 

Mass Effect did it great, I started with the second one, and didn't have any problems learning the rules that had already been set up. Even some games that have the same gameplay mechanics do it great, like Pokémon. Every game is pretty much the same as before, but the game manages to add new things, and still keep it the same. People enjoy that enough, and every game has a different main character, and different world. works perfectly, and a perfect way to reset you character.

 

but in the case of god of war, it's just lazy that with every game, they have to reset kratos...it's just so lazy. people could think of a better way to him evolve, or enhance the opponent...I don't know, it just seems lazy to me. :)

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I do agree with almost all of what you said mate, Games are sleezy sometimes when it comes to obstacles, as you have played RE5 I guess you've tried Resident Evil ORC aswell? that game with thier doors are messed up, some can be opend and some cannot, if there is fire you can't go through it. Things like that are lazy and making an extra room for each door, how hard can that be?

 

For your Pokémon example I can agree with all of it but that game got so many limitazions is incredible you get a false sense of a journey when you can only walk one path and that path alone, we need more Free roaming games in the RPG genre, more like the old school versions those where bad aswell but not as.

 

I played one RPG game once that was amazing when it came to things like this, you could actually make keys by magic or being a blacksmith to progress if you wanted to get the more "Hero" side of things, if not just blow the doors down and you get through anyway...was a good one but can't remember it's name right now... : (

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Nice read but the paragraph in the middle about pokemon and RPGs with magic and such didn't make much sense.

 

With pokemon it's just like that you have to go the long way around, battle trainers and fight/capture pokemon. It makes the game longer trust me there have been a few times when I played and thought I wish I could just jump over because I didn't want to battle anyone but it makes the game more fun that way and you don't want a short game where you can pretty much skip most of the adventure/travelling.

 

As for the RPGs it's pretty much the same thing, you have to find the key which is guarded by enemies and there you will gain exp and finish quests and you level up. So it makes sense it just really logical you can't just have players who are strong enough summon familiars/minions and such just destroy the game completely, again makes for no sense of adventure and if online not far for other players :p

 

One thing I do agree with is when it comes to mobility or navigation through levels. Some times it's just so stupid. Can't remember which game it was but I had just unlocked like a really high jump but I couldn't go over this gate because of an invisible wall place there. I was a good 5-6ft above the gate lol.

 

Also with the pokemon bit you can't let people just start bringing out pokemon and running around with them lol. Just bring out some legendary pokemon and take it for a walk with you haha, now that's funny.

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Just started playing Resident Evil 6 and it makes me laugh that just like RE5, you can't hop over something small.

 

With the God of War sequels, the point was that you didn't start the game too powerful. At least with GOW II they kind of explained it though.

 

Good points though overall.

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I think you take your games too seriously. If they were as logical as you'd want them to be, it would take some of the fun away. All the things you said are done intentionally to make you go a certain way, as opposed to bugs, which just ruin the gameplay and were simply overlooked by the developers.

 

Though they could replace low ledges that even a mouse can jump over with walls that would block your path in real life as well. (That wouldn't work for Pokémon though, where you need the ledge when you approach from the other side.)

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Nice read but the paragraph in the middle about pokemon and RPGs with magic and such didn't make much sense.

 

With pokemon it's just like that you have to go the long way around, battle trainers and fight/capture pokemon. It makes the game longer trust me there have been a few times when I played and thought I wish I could just jump over because I didn't want to battle anyone but it makes the game more fun that way and you don't want a short game where you can pretty much skip most of the adventure/travelling.

 

As for the RPGs it's pretty much the same thing, you have to find the key which is guarded by enemies and there you will gain exp and finish quests and you level up. So it makes sense it just really logical you can't just have players who are strong enough summon familiars/minions and such just destroy the game completely, again makes for no sense of adventure and if online not far for other players :p

 

One thing I do agree with is when it comes to mobility or navigation through levels. Some times it's just so stupid. Can't remember which game it was but I had just unlocked like a really high jump but I couldn't go over this gate because of an invisible wall place there. I was a good 5-6ft above the gate lol.

 

Also with the pokemon bit you can't let people just start bringing out pokemon and running around with them lol. Just bring out some legendary pokemon and take it for a walk with you haha, now that's funny.

 

Yeah, but the thing with pokémon that gets me, is that the game revolves around pokémon, story wise and gameplay wise, yet you can't use your pokémon for anything.

 

I know the point is to do battle and all, but my point is that it just doesn't make any sense to create such lazy invisible walls to prevent me from taking the shorter route. there's no "logic" in taking the long way around to fight people, there's only logic in using your pokémon to make that small ledge. Sure, with a legendary pokémon the game would be over really quickly, but that's the whole point of it, from the instant you have a character with god like powers (or wielding something godlike), or you character has some almost super human ability, then why have the game dismiss this at one point, and then over use it in another? they should just think of other reasons why your character can't make the jump, can't climb a fence, or god forbid, actually manage to crawl through the open window next to the closed door...

 

here's an idea, make your god character a cripple? that way he can't jump, and have him or her progress through the game, to eventually find biotic legs or something, that you find pieces for to make the more mobile? your know, something along those lines would seem more reasonable then some hyper military trained guy, not being able to jump a fence...isn't that standard part of military training?

 

 

oh, and here's another question, why on earth do military characters never come along armed to the teeth? I know that in some cases it makes sense that they wouldn't have much weapons, but come on, seriously re5? you have to get to a weapon merchant to find your first piss poor gun? guess the world doesn't need to be freed from evil bioterrorist people trying to take over the world using....zombies?:confused:

 

there are other games out there that do the same thing, try to have the big bad guy destroy the world, and you don't even get back up? that's poor writing, and to make it worse, cliché...metal gear solid's a great example of this too. Love the game, but damn man, does solid snake ever do anything right? his cover was blown before the guy got there. poor snake.

 

 

 

oh, here's a game that got it right in most ways...Breath of Fire 5. Your character gained almost god like powers from the start, but yet your were not advised to use them, because there was this counter at the bottom of the screen, that started to increase with every few steps, and if your used your power in battle, the counter would shoot up dramatically...the reason why you didn't want that counter to go up was simple, if it reaches 100% before the end of the game...it's game over, your character dies because it can't handle the power, no restart with less percentage, nope, it's just simply game over. Man, I loved that concept, it really made you think stratigically when to use that power, and when not. I understood why he didn't use it to blast open a door, make a giant ice wall or something behind him to prevent the bad guys from chasing him, it actually made sense.

 

 

I think you take your games too seriously. If they were as logical as you'd want them to be, it would take some of the fun away. All the things you said are done intentionally to make you go a certain way, as opposed to bugs, which just ruin the gameplay and were simply overlooked by the developers.

 

Though they could replace low ledges that even a mouse can jump over with walls that would block your path in real life as well. (That wouldn't work for Pokémon though, where you need the ledge when you approach from the other side.)

 

It's not a question of taking it too seriously or not, it's a question of evolving the way games are made. i'll put it like this, in the old days, I pretty much could understand why game devolopers had to make the games the way they did. you had to follow a straight line, and hope you made it to the end. they created floating platforms (that don't exist), doors that would slam closed in front of you etc, and you can't get around it, because it was 2D.

 

Then 3D games came, and in the beginning they tried to at least find away around that, but that was too hard, so they invented the invisible wall things, and pretty much stuck with that...

 

but gaming has evolved. there are games out there that look stunning, and have great gameplay, but are just hindered by sloppy level design and poor character design. it's like people are still stuck on the idea of "oh, can't do this move, so gotta go around all this crap to make it to the other side". heck, ever played silent hill 4? there's a level in that game that you can pretty much skip entirely, because the exist is on the other side of a wall. you have to go around all these stupid barriers, that make no sense, only to end up on the other side. well, there's a bug in that game that you can exploit, just to get to the other side of the wall. and don't get me wrong, it's not even cheating, because the entire level offers nothing to the story, nothing to the character, and it's only there to make you go around a few bends, pick up a key or two, and try to make it out. hardly even an enemy nearby. it's lazy things like that that just get on my nerves.

Edited by Cold Fusion
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i'm sorry, but why the hell do game developers still bother with these stupid obstacles. why on earth can't they get a clue, stop making these lazy level designs, and develop some decent invisible walls, actual reasons why you can't jump the fence. the games that seem to suffer from this the most, seem to be horror games for some reason. it seems that the darker a game gets, the lazier the design becomes.

 

I always feel that many big budget titles are some games are built backwards: they come up with a concept first and fill in the details later. If you have played RE6, you'll know what I mean.

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but gaming has evolved. there are games out there that look stunning, and have great gameplay, but are just hindered by sloppy level design and poor character design. it's like people are still stuck on the idea of "oh, can't do this move, so gotta go around all this crap to make it to the other side". heck, ever played silent hill 4? there's a level in that game that you can pretty much skip entirely, because the exist is on the other side of a wall. you have to go around all these stupid barriers, that make no sense, only to end up on the other side. well, there's a bug in that game that you can exploit, just to get to the other side of the wall. and don't get me wrong, it's not even cheating, because the entire level offers nothing to the story, nothing to the character, and it's only there to make you go around a few bends, pick up a key or two, and try to make it out. hardly even an enemy nearby. it's lazy things like that that just get on my nerves.

 

Please keep in mind, that you have the perception of a gamer. You compare flaws in one game with parts other games do excel.

That's a bit like saying "Why can't we have a Prius with the power of a Veyron".

Apart from technical limitations and stupid logic flaws (if you can jump this one fence, why can't you jump another? If behind every door is a room, why can't I still not leave the building and enter the one across the street?) you still have different people and different work philosophies for different games. While some level designers give you incredible experiences, other only do standard stuff and may not be paid for creativity.

And you still have traditions and schools in game development - take Japanese Games for example: Most still tell their story through dialogues with pictures of the characters heads like ten years ago while others give you cut scene after cut scene. But you hardly find a decision based interactive story telling like ME or The Witcher.

Take your generic FPS - one hose of a level loaded with script scenes (at best) while it's technically possible to give you a wide area to free roam and destroy at will.

Or take NfS: In earlier installments you could total your car over time optically while All NfS:U allowed was removal of side mirrors and a broken windshield - because you should still be able to see your car you invested hours in to modify. Later (Carbon, I think) they said it was because no one likes to total their dream car. Then it was because the licensors didn't allowed it. (And on top of it it would have cost the modeling team time ;) ).

Then there are all the Stealth Actions where people can't here you if you're right behind them - even if you talk to your superiors. It would make the game frustrating.

 

Well, point is: Don't go logic on games. It's the same thing as in some movies where the plot can be resolved in five minutes.

Edited by c1ned1ne
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Please keep in mind, that you have the perception of a gamer. You compare flaws in one game with parts other games do excel.

That's a bit like saying "Why can't we have a Prius with the power of a Veyron".

Apart from technical limitations and stupid logic flaws (if you can jump this one fence, why can't you jump another? If behind every door is a room, why can't I still not leave the building and enter the one across the street?) you still have different people and different work philosophies for different games. While some level designers give you incredible experiences, other only do standard stuff and may not be paid for creativity.

And you still have traditions and schools in game development - take Japanese Games for example: Most still tell their story through dialogues with pictures of the characters heads like ten years ago while others give you cut scene after cut scene. But you hardly find a decision based interactive story telling like ME or The Witcher.

Take your generic FPS - one hose of a level loaded with script scenes (at best) while it's technically possible to give you a wide area to free roam and destroy at will.

Or take NfS: In earlier installments you could total your car over time optically while All NfS:U allowed was removal of side mirrors and a broken windshield - because you should still be able to see your car you invested hours in to modify. Later (Carbon, I think) they said it was because no one likes to total their dream car. Then it was because the licensors didn't allowed it. (And on top of it it would have cost the modeling team time ;) ).

Then there are all the Stealth Actions where people can't here you if you're right behind them - even if you talk to your superiors. It would make the game frustrating.

 

Well, point is: Don't go logic on games. It's the same thing as in some movies where the plot can be resolved in five minutes.

 

well yeah, in a way you are right, one should not apply logic to certain games, but still, there are limitations as to what people could still call good level design, and what's not. sure, totalling a car in some games is totally normal, while in others, just getting them dirty is near impossible.

and sure, cars don't need fuel, and people don't need to eat and all, one does have to draw the line somewhere. but drawing a line at "can't be bothered to think of a reason why you can't jump this fence", seems a bit weak no? :p

 

don't get me wrong, I understand your logic, but I think your logic has more logic to it than that of many game developers out there.

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