Jump to content

Dark Souls Story/Lore Discussion Thread *Spoilers*


ShadowAFC

Recommended Posts

http://www.ps3trophies.org/forum/members/fiftyquid-albums-image-storage-picture12706-attention-sign-orig.png WARNING! http://www.ps3trophies.org/forum/members/fiftyquid-albums-image-storage-picture12706-attention-sign-orig.png

SPOILER TAGS ARE NOT USED IN THIS THREAD!

You have entered a spoiler tag free zone about the game Dark Souls. This thread has been created to discuss anything Dark Souls related. You are permitted to discuss key plot points, boss battles and any part of the story openly without the use of SPOILER TAGS. Please note, this is not a "How do I..." thread. Any posts like this will be deleted.

 

In summary, this is a SPOILER TAG free zone. You do not have to use SPOILER TAGS within this thread. This thread is immune.

Edited by ShadowAFC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 92
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

This thread is created for the purpose of discussing the story and lore surrounding Dark Souls. Since there is no concrete story, much of the world is left open to speculation, and therefore, a great topic for discussion and sharing theories on the world history of Lordran.

 

Spoilers may be revealed about the world, but since this is not a story driven game, and knowing the story won't ruin any encounters for you, and may even improve your experience with the game, spoiler tags are not necessary.

 

In Short:

Spoiler Tag Free Zone. (unless a mod says otherwise)

 

There is many parts of Dark Souls' Lore ripe for speculation and discussion, and it is scattered across the many wikis and sites of the sort. But this thread is to discuss your view of the Lore and History in Lordran.

 

Which ending do you believe was the "good ending?" Is linking the fire in Kiln the good ending? Or are you just delaying the inevitable by continuing the cycle, and potentially ending up like Gwyn? Or if the Age of Dark is the Age of Man, where the Age of Fire was the Age of the Gods, wouldn't the Dark Lord ending be the true good ending?

 

What of the mysterious pendant that exists as the topic of many discussions across the internet? Do you think it has any revealing information, or was the game's director just trolling us when he said that he recommends it as your starting gift?

 

There is much to discuss, especially as people have their own point of view on the very intriguing Lore.

 

Discuss Away!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like this thread. It can really help explain the lore and clarify the story of Dark Souls, history of Lordran, the endings and the purpose of your character.

 

Regarding the ending, I feel that the Dark Ending (i.e., not lighting the fire after beating Gwyn) is the morally good ending. It's the ending where the undead and humanity are freed from the deception by the gods.

 

I'm assuming this thread will be filled with spoilers and that it will be allowed here but I'm still trying to keep it vague enough until a moderator gives the OK.

 

For those who like YouTube uploads about the Dark Souls lore, check out Quelaag's channel. I really like her videos and she actually has knowledge on mythology, world history, different cultures and common sense.

Edited by Tostigroover
Added link
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the good ending is the dark ending where you don't link the bonfire. The bonfires are actually "evil" in the game. You're forced to give up your humanity to kindle them. You're keeping the cycle going by lighting the bonfire at the end to be the new Dark Lord. The gameplay makes you want the bonfire. You rest at it, kindle it, and it helps you. But the story is that the bonfires are actually keeping the cycle going.

 

By refusing to kindle the bonfire you usher in an age of dark for the humans to thrive.

 

 

The pendant is said to comfort travelers. I have no idea what else it's good for other than trading for souvenir of reprisal.

 

 

Speculation:

 

1. Seath the Scaleless is Priscilla's father. Priscilla is an albino half-breed dragon. She does a white breath type attack. As some sort of outcast she hides in the Painted World that she created and asks people who wander in to kindly leave.

 

Seath betrayed his own kind and found love with the human giants there and made Priscilla the Crossbreed. She's an abomination for both dragons and giants so she hides in a world that is not belonging to either.

 

2. All of Dark Souls is the 6th Archstone in Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls the 6th archstone is sealed away cause what was going on there was just way too crazy. It was the land of giants. In Dark Souls everything is giant and you're a descendant of the furtive pygmy (which is actually what humans are). We see Patches in both games.

 

What came first or if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls was happening side by side is a mystery.

 

 

/end speculation.

 

 

Questions:

 

Who are all the daughters of chaos? The witch of Izalith tried to recreate the first flame. The Bed of Chaos is the result. So the witch is the only character in the intro that isn't a boss.

 

1. Quelaag

2. Quelaag's sister. The one you talk to for the covenant.

3. Quelana. Teaches you pyromancy. The only daughter that didn't go mad. she actually keeps her head.

4. Corpse by Ceaseless Discharge where you get the gold hemmed set. This is what the daughters of chaos wear so is it possible Ceaseless Discharge killed one of the daughters or that it is a daughter or daughter's creation? :eek:

5. Hollow in Lost Izalith that attacks you.

 

If the witches meddled in chaotic magic, but it messed them up obviously and turned some of them them into spiders and such, would Centipede Demon be another daughter of chaos? :eek:

 

 

Who is the Everlasting Dragon? Why is he immortal? Did he go into hiding in Ash Lake during the war? His covenant is about making you be more like a dragon so he is trying to rebuild a dragon army to go against Gwyn again?

 

 

 

Stuff I liked about the story:

 

It's not told through cutscenes. And it's more in depth than Demon's Souls if you read every item description and exhaust all dilaog options. It's far superior a method of story-telling in games cause it remembers it's a game and not a movie. You can play or you can enjoy the story as far as you want to get into it.

 

 

What I love about the final boss fight is that after all that you've seen and been through the final boss isn't this super awesome monster. It's not this exciting epic battle. From the moment you enter you see this empty cave with one old man defending it to the death and the piano cues.

 

It's this bitter, withered, lonely, old man consumed by the darkness and this lust for power.

Edited by Kahalachan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2. All of Dark Souls is the 6th Archstone in Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls the 6th archstone is sealed away cause what was going on there was just way too crazy. It was the land of giants. In Dark Souls everything is giant and you're a descendant of the furtive pygmy (which is actually what humans are). We see Patches in both games.

 

What came first or if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls was happening side by side is a mystery.

 

 

 

 

Questions:

 

Who are all the daughters of chaos? The witch of Izalith tried to recreate the first flame. The Bed of Chaos is the result. So the witch is the only character in the intro that isn't a boss.

 

1. Quelaag

2. Quelaag's sister. The one you talk to for the covenant.

3. Quelana. Teaches you pyromancy. The only daughter that didn't go mad. she actually keeps her head.

4. Corpse by Ceaseless Discharge where you get the gold hemmed set. This is what the daughters of chaos wear so is it possible Ceaseless Discharge killed one of the daughters or that it is a daughter or daughter's creation? :eek:

5. Hollow in Lost Izalith that attacks you.

 

If the witches meddled in chaotic magic, but it messed them up obviously and turned some of them them into spiders and such, would Centipede Demon be another daughter of chaos? :eek:

 

I can see how Lordran could be the 6th archstone. Patches shows they could possibly be connected somehow. But obviously the events in Dark Souls have to be occurring at a different time, since Boletaria seems to have zero connection outside a recurring character. Armors are generally different, and technology and soul arts has definitely evolved (or maybe even devolved since pyromancy and magic were one in the same in Demon's Souls) So Dark Souls could even be taking place before the rest of the world got invaded by the fog. It would stand to reason since the Bed of Chaos is the source of Demons that many Demons (even a massive army) had already gone out towards Boletaria.

It could also be assumed the events of both games are happening at the same time as well, and the 6th archstone was destroyed to at least slow down the progression of the Demons.

 

Of course that's wild speculation at best :o

 

I think the most popular theory for the unaccounted Sisters of Chaos is that the two spheres you need to destroy on the Bed of Chaos could be the other sisters. Since it is assumed by description that the Bed of Chaos absorbed (or is) the actual Witch of Izalith, and since the Bed of Chaos was created by her meddling with souls trying to recreate the First Flame, it would make sense for a few of her follows to be consumed as well.

 

As for Ceaseless Discharge. I think your idea is spot on with it being another one of the sisters. I think this is supported because Ceaseless won't attack you until you attack it, but more importantly, if you take that armor it becomes hostile as well, like if you were robbing her grave :whistle:

 

I guess if you really wanna get into potentials, Yuria the Witch from Demon's Souls could possibly be one of the sisters. Sure she doesn't wear the same clothes, but she is probably running from her past, and if I recall in Demon's, Yuria gives you the most powerful Fire based Magic. :think:

 

Of course this is all a shot in the dark since the games "supposedly" aren't connected. :p

 

That pendant still has me interested though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like the IDEA of this thread, and I'd love to see what details other users have uncovered about the lore of Dark Souls which myself and others I've discussed it with have possibly missed. But fanfic and wild assumptions is NOT "Lore Discussion". For example, anyone who makes a claim, as boldly as Kahala did his, that Smough and Pharis are the other 2 of Gwyn's 4 Knights is NOT Discussing Lore; they're just making shit up, because that is wrong.

 

What is the "First Flame"? Though central to the plot and setting of the game, FromSoft wisely left the details surrounding the "First Flame" gloriously vague. What IS it? Is it a tangible object of great importance and magnitude, perhaps the sun? Is it a more figurative notion, such as the collective technological and cultural progress of mankind? Is it somewhere inbetween, like as if to say it was the "life force" of the world? We can never be sure, because FromSoft wouldn't say. And as you can extrapolate from what they HAVE said, they deliberately wanted it this way. Nothing's more endearing to the heart, or inspiring to adventure, as a mystery. If they gave it a singular meaning, all of the intrigue and wonderment it could offer us would be done away with. But as it is, though no one person's answer is more correct than any other, it's something special that can only be found within those of us who bother to give the mystery life.

 

Who were the 4 Knights of Gwyn, and where are they now? There is no mystery in the "who" part of the question, though where they have gone now IS open to much, continuous, speculative debate.

Sir Ornstein the Dragonslayer, captain of the Four Knights of Gwyn.

Sir Artorias the Abysswalker, who fell to the Dark.

Sir Gough the Hawkeye, leader of the Greatarchers.

Sir Ciaran the Lord's Blade, personal assassin to the Lord of Cinder.

While Artorias is presumed dead (given that he has a grave in Darkroot Garden, past the Dark Forest), the only confirmed death among the the Four Knights of Gwyn is Ornstein, as the Chosen Undead (the player's character) kills him as part of their journey during the game's story. The whereabouts of the other 2 remains a complete mystery...

 

There's tons more, of course, but I can always add more, later... =)

Edited by SnapGW
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see how Lordran could be the 6th archstone. Patches shows they could possibly be connected somehow. But obviously the events in Dark Souls have to be occurring at a different time, since Boletaria seems to have zero connection outside a recurring character. Armors are generally different, and technology and soul arts has definitely evolved (or maybe even devolved since pyromancy and magic were one in the same in Demon's Souls) So Dark Souls could even be taking place before the rest of the world got invaded by the fog. It would stand to reason since the Bed of Chaos is the source of Demons that many Demons (even a massive army) had already gone out towards Boletaria.

It could also be assumed the events of both games are happening at the same time as well, and the 6th archstone was destroyed to at least slow down the progression of the Demons.

 

Of course that's wild speculation at best :o

 

I think the most popular theory for the unaccounted Sisters of Chaos is that the two spheres you need to destroy on the Bed of Chaos could be the other sisters. Since it is assumed by description that the Bed of Chaos absorbed (or is) the actual Witch of Izalith, and since the Bed of Chaos was created by her meddling with souls trying to recreate the First Flame, it would make sense for a few of her follows to be consumed as well.

 

As for Ceaseless Discharge. I think your idea is spot on with it being another one of the sisters. I think this is supported because Ceaseless won't attack you until you attack it, but more importantly, if you take that armor it becomes hostile as well, like if you were robbing her grave :whistle:

 

I guess if you really wanna get into potentials, Yuria the Witch from Demon's Souls could possibly be one of the sisters. Sure she doesn't wear the same clothes, but she is probably running from her past, and if I recall in Demon's, Yuria gives you the most powerful Fire based Magic. :think:

 

Of course this is all a shot in the dark since the games "supposedly" aren't connected. :p

 

That pendant still has me interested though.

 

Yeah the magics and armors are different, but if you see Lordran and Boletaria as 2 different cultures having their own unique ideas on magic and armor, then it's possible. It'd be like the difference between Christianity and Buddhism.

 

Pryomancy and Magic are considered 2 different specializations in Lordran but consolidated in Boletaria. Yuria being a daughter of chaos sounds pretty cool. :think:

 

I find the witches of Izalith the most interesting. Everything chaos requires humanity. Humanity is used to kindle a bonfire. It makes flame stronger. Chaos weapons are more powerful with more humanity. Chaos pyromancy is more powerful than just the regular pyromancy version of that spell. It's like they discovered this forbidden magic that strips away humanity for power. Really cool stuff.

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah the magics and armors are different, but if you see Lordran and Boletaria as 2 different cultures having their own unique ideas on magic and armor, then it's possible. It'd be like the difference between Christianity and Buddhism.

 

Pryomancy and Magic are considered 2 different specializations in Lordran but consolidated in Boletaria. Yuria being a daughter of chaos sounds pretty cool. :think:

 

I find the witches of Izalith the most interesting. Everything chaos requires humanity. Humanity is used to kindle a bonfire. It makes flame stronger. Chaos weapons are more powerful with more humanity. Chaos pyromancy is more powerful than just the regular pyromancy version of that spell. It's like they discovered this forbidden magic that strips away humanity for power. Really cool stuff.

 

I could see how that could work, Boletaria and Lordran being two different cultures and all. It just seems a little unlikely there wouldn't be more traces of Boletaria in Lordran if they truly were connected. So I don't know if it being the 6th archstone is feasible, but existing in the same world seems likely, even being neighboring nations then since even with the subtle differences in armors and weapons, technology has advanced to generally the same point, in generally the same way.

 

I remember reading somewhere that Pyromancy is considered more rudimentary than Soul based magic. So it would stand to say Boletaria was more advanced in terms of magic as a whole since they could treat both Pyromancy and Soul Arts as one in the same. It also could be reasoned Lordran is more advanced because Pyromancy and Soul Arts are separate practices, meaning they each require mastery on their own instead of training in one universal art.

 

Its very open to debate.

 

 

Back onto lore.

 

Of course, I have to my obligatory, "that pendant still interests me to an Nth degree." So I will. That pendant still interests me to an Nth degree. Especially after scowering the Internets for more info and seeing the list of theories.

 

What I really want to know right now though, is about Gwynevere(sp?). It is said (and pretty much confirmed), that the one inside Anor Londo at the time of the game is an illusion created by Gwyndolin. Since that is the case, was there ever a real Gwynevere, or does Gwyndolin just use the illusion to complete his own agenda? Or possibly both?

 

I think it can be argued Gwyndolin uses the illusion to guide you as the "Chosen Undead" to achieve his own agenda. Since the "Age of Fire" is the Age of the Gods, and that age is ending, its only obvious Gwyndolin being a Deity would want that to not happen. By guiding you to succeed his father with his illusion of Gwynevere, he would be able to help you link the fire and restart the cycle without having to sacrifice himself in any way.

 

So I think it stands as a possibility, Gwyndolin, to some degree is guiding you to prolong the "Age of Fire." Maybe not a significantly revealing point about the world, but it does make sense to me in terms of choosing which of the endings are a bit less crap for everybody (since both endings seem to have a dismal destination)

 

But I'm still curious about Gwynevere's existence. If Gwynevere truly did exist why did she leave Anor Londo? Because of what Seath was doing as you can find what are probably Gwyneveres servants in the Dukes Archives. (the Pisca's that you find the miracles connected to Gwynevere's covenant on.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this thread is immediately going to become a place where the wildest theories get thrown around, I'm not interested.

 

Dark Souls can never be the closed archstone from Demon's Souls because... it is closed off. Who cares that Patches is in both worlds? That can be more easily attributed to the developers placing a nod to their previous title. You see the Moonlight Greatsword popping up in different FromSoftware titles but they do not have a shared universe either.

 

Let's just stick to the story of Dark Souls.

 

Story, history and the role of the player

At first we had a world ruled by dragons and a world cast in dark. Then came fire and several characters stood up against and killed the dragons. Lord Gwyn and his knights, the Witch Izalith and her Daughters of Chaos and Gravelord Nito all stood up to the dragons and Seath the Scaleless Dragon betrayed his kind to side with the usurpers. There was also a Furtive Pygmy but he was forgotten. This is all in the prologue. The Age of Fire had started.

 

"Pygmy" is defined as "an insignificant person," which makes sense because that is how the deities see the humans. The Furtive Pygmy, when the dragons were defeated, found the Dark Soul. He passed this on through his offspring. His offspring show the mark: the Dark Sign. enter the present. The pygmies are the part of the human population that are branded with the Dark Sign. Deities call them the undead and they are sent to the Undead Asylum. Humans start seeing the pygmies -- their own kind! -- as outcasts as well. In short, pygmies (humans with the Dark Sign) are despised by the gods and humans and cast out into the asylum. The Dark Sign is even called "the Undead Curse."

 

What does the Age of Fire mean? As far as I gather, it's an age where Lord Gwyn and his fellow deities rule Lordran by the power of fire and they have power over humans/undead/pygmies. It is, however, not an age that is natural, in the sense that the Age of Fire is kept alive by artificial means. Lord Gwyn sits in the Kiln of the First Flame keeping the first fire burning. He sacrificed himself to link the fire and thus became Lord of Cinder. He will do everything to keep this Age of Fire going and he gets help. Most active in this are 1) Kingseeker Frampt, the Primordial Serpent in Firelink Shrine who befriended Lord Gwyn and 2) Gwyndolin, Gwyn's son raised as a Daughter and leader of the Darkmoon blades. Both Frampt and Gwyndolin (by using an illusion of his sister Gwynevere above the Ornstein and Smough boss area in Anor Londo) blatantly lie to the player. Keep in mind that the player is a descendant of the Furtive Pygmy and has received the Dark Soul, the soul destined to bring about a new age, the Age of Darkness. Frampt and Gwyndolin (through the Gwynevere illusion) lie and say your destiny is to succeed Lord Gwyn. They, and Lord Gwyn himself, want you to keep the fire linked and sacrifice yourself, as Gwyn did, to keep the Age of Fire and the Gods' rule over humans intact.

 

This was not the intent of the Furtive Pygmy. "Furtive" means "to avoid attention." He tried to keep himself and the Dark Soul he found unnoticed until, in his lineage, someone would be born that was destined to overthrow Lord Gwyn, end the Age of Fire (where the Gods rule) and start the Age of Darkness (where humans rule). The player is this destined offspring from the Furtive Pygmy. Gwyn, Frampt and Gwyndolin are afraid of you and your destiny, thus they try and get you to link the fire.

 

Primordial Serpent Darkstalker Kaathe is the only character in the entire game who actually tells us what is going on. He tells us of the Furtive Pygmy finding the Dark Soul, Lord Gwyn being afraid of this natural course of progress and artificially keeping the Age of Fire intact, commanding his children to shepherd humans and how they will all lie to the player. The Dark Lord's destiny is not to take over Gwyn's role and keep the fire linked, the Dark Lord's role is to extinguish the fire and the Gods' rule over men and to usher in the Age of Darkness where humans rule themselves. At the end of the game, after defeating Lord Gwyn, you can also choose to walk away from the fire, letting it die and fulfilling the destiny that started when the Furtive Pygmy found the Dark Soul.

 

 

This is why I feel the dark ending of the game is the morally good ending. Letting nature take its course and freeing humans from oppression by and lies from the Gods. It's all told by Darkstalker Kaathe if you give him the Lordvessel (YouTube video in spoiler tags).

 

[spoiler=bla][ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auggNRdDCZI]Video by MichelKobayashi[/ame]

 

 

 

I hope this makes sense and I did not put any large errors in there. Sorry for the amount of text. Still, I have a question/thought I cannot get out of my head.

 

Kindling the bonfires. Is this part of subduing humans and the descendants from the Furtive Pygmy? Give up our humanity/soul for two reasons. One, to keep the fire burning and, thus, helping Lord Gwyn keep the Age of Fire going. Two, to rob the players of their inherent power in the form of the Dark Soul?

 

 

Like I said, I'm loving this thread. I think there's a lot to explore within the game without resorting to crackpot theories.

Edited by Tostigroover
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i'd like to say that i don't know what i'm talking about.

i haven't yet talked to many characters. i'm just starting the game. pretty much all i've seen is the beginning scene.

anyway, aren't we using the bonfires to help us? i don't really know what the dark soul is, but i see giving up humanity as a choice we make to further our quest. i know it's not really an option but if you put yourself in your character's place you can see how the bonfires are there to help and your humanity is the price you pay for seeing your world through to the end you think it deserves

i don't know. anyway, when i play games that seem to have epic stories, the depth of right and wrong and the themes of sacrifice and determination and cost and greater good all seem to become a little grey. i like that it happens. it just makes me think there aren't as many sure answers as in a lot of other stories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since you bring up the 4 knights it makes me wonder who the 4 Kings are.
That's easy...

 

Who are/were the Four Kings? The Four Kings, as mentioned by SEVERAL different sources, were the then-Lords-of-Men during the time of Gwyn's uprising, at the beginning of the Age of Fire. They ruled over the massive, unmatched city of New Londo, which prospered greatly under them, and all mankind benefited from their influence. As a show of gratitude for them, and a reward for their wisdom, Gwyn granted them a fragment of a Lord's Soul. They were not given this for any tie to the uprising, as they did not PARTICIPATE in Gwyn's Rebellion (as some call it), but rather as a reward for their purpose in and nurturing of mankind.

 

Their fall into Darkness was an inevitable result of their pursuit of power. Godhood, immortality, unlimited prosperity. WHAT they pursued didn't matter. But they yearned for it, and in so doing plunged into the darkness that would become The Abyss. New Londo would continue without them, for many ages onward, albeit not nearly as prosperous, nor as influential. It was only when the Four Kings began to reach beyond their confines of The Abyss through their agents, the Darkwraiths, that the once-great and unrivaled city of New Londo itself had to be sunken and erased from human history, as well...

 

...but i see giving up humanity as a choice we make to further our quest.

...

i don't know. anyway, when i play games that seem to have epic stories, the depth of right and wrong and the themes of sacrifice and determination and cost and greater good all seem to become a little grey.

Precisely. I hadn't heard ANYONE take the interpretation of the Age of Fire or the presence of the Bonfires as a BAD thing until I found this thread. As such, I differ greatly from Tosti's position of the Age of Fire being an era of the Gods OPPRESSING humanity. Nor do I feel like the Chosen Undead is being LIED to, at all. Kaathe calling the Chosen Undead's "purpose" (as described by Frampt) a LIE is really his interpretation of the situation. Gwyn and his offspring genuinely WISH for a successor to continue the Age of Fire, while Kaathe genuinely BELIEVES this is an unnatural progression to be discouraged.

 

When I gave the "option" of "something abstract, like the progress of all mankind" as one of the possible interpretations of what the First Flame could be, there was a solid reason behind this. Not speculation at all. The fact is, in ACTUAL human history (which EVERY story of no-less-than-adequate integrity is grounded in) our ancestors had achieved the height of MANY scientific pursuits. Mayans had blended architecture and astronomy seamlessly, the Greeks and Egyptians had amassed the single greatest collective assembly of human knowledge and history, and all of these achievements were destroyed. The original, water-proof recipe for concrete, used by the Romans, has forever been lost. Countless forms of unknown-to-today wisdom have been erased from recorded history, as a result of the burning of the Great Library. Fact is blurred with hysteria and wild fiction, when humans today believe that the Mayans predicted an apocalypse in their day.

 

This cataclysmic "reset" of human progress was the Dark Ages, or Medieval Period. Advanced societies were reduced to squabbling tribes, raiding sub-cultures, and diseased and impoverished shadows of a past culture's greatness. Education and knowledge was reset. Standard of living was reset. Progress in its entirety was begun all over again. The FACT of the Dark Ages is, what I and plenty others believe, is the meaning behind the game's name, Dark Souls, and its possible ending leading towards the Age of Dark. It's very obvious to see, if you're doing no more than looking. So, while the Dark Ages were historically the result of many different events that coalesced into one massive historical reset button, the Age of Dark being the direct result of a mystical intervention by the acts of a character of deific status and capacity, comparing the two is exactly the same as suggesting that the sun is drawn across the sky by a God's chariot. It's NOT stating that this is impossible; it's giving an interpretation of its "cause" as seen through the eyes of a faithful, or at the very least, giving a simple, calculated purpose some form of beautiful, artistic meaning.

 

Another interpretation is of course to say that the First Fire is NOTHING related to human, and instead some sort of invisible (to those not within the Kiln) source of all the power of the Gods, and to let it die would be to remove the Gods from this world's existence (or simply render them mortal). Essentially as Tosti described the world of Dark Souls, and the Age of Fire's part in it. That would be analogous to the God of War franchise, whereby the ENTIRETY of the story is one epic tale explaining how a world that once had Gods came to be without any in the generations that passed. (i.e. Kratos killed them all!)

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He passed this on through his offspring. His offspring show the mark: the Dark Sign. enter the present. The pygmies are the part of the human population that are branded with the Dark Sign. Deities call them the undead and they are sent to the Undead Asylum. Humans start seeing the pygmies -- their own kind! -- as outcasts as well. In short, pygmies (humans with the Dark Sign) are despised by the gods and humans and cast out into the asylum. The Dark Sign is even called "the Undead Curse."

 

 

It's interesting cause the Dark Sign might not be purely inherited and the Undead Asylum isn't the only place the undead were sent.

 

The sewer chamber key says this.

 

In any community, a few bad apples are sure

to exhibit insatiable greed. If they were

turned Undead, and banished to the Depths,

would they reconsider their ways?

 

Use this key to see for yourself.

 

Meaning the Depths was used for people who turned undead although they weren't born with the Dark Sign.

 

Interestingly Havel was one of those.......

 

The Watchtower Basement Key says

 

Key to the basement of the watchtower in

the Undead Burg.

 

The basement of the watchtower forms a stone

cell. There are rumors of a hero turned

Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend.

For his own good, of course.

 

Meaning Havel was locked up by Gwyn and sort of got special treatment as a prisoner since he's not in the Asylum or the Depths. Havel's ring says him and Gwyn were best buds on the battlefield.

 

So there's the question of how does one turn Undead if you aren't born with the Dark Sign?

 

 

Great Magic Barrier mentions that Havel hates Seathe.

 

"Havel the Rock, an old battlefield compatriot of Lord Gwyn, was the sworn enemy of Seath the Scaleless. He despised magic, and made certain to devise means of counteraction"

 

Of course the item descriptions seem to imply that this is all rumors. Which to me, sort of means that claiming people were hollow or undead was sort of a witch hunt.

 

So my speculation is the reality is that people were born with the Dark Sign. Claiming that people were undead was used to abuse power and wrongly imprison others. As in the case of Havel, who stood in Gwyn's way due to him hating Seath.

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I differ greatly from Tosti's position of the Age of Fire being an era of the Gods OPPRESSING humanity. Nor do I feel like the Chosen Undead is being LIED to, at all. Kaathe calling the Chosen Undead's "purpose" (as described by Frampt) a LIE is really his interpretation of the situation. Gwyn and his offspring genuinely WISH for a successor to continue the Age of Fire, while Kaathe genuinely BELIEVES this is an unnatural progression to be discouraged.

I like this viewpoint. Of course, since it's a FromSoftware game where things are not spelled out, we might never know for certain. Not from the information we get in the game in any case. I, personally, feel that it's more plausible that the Age of Fire really are the Gods oppressing humans through unnatural (i.e., artificial) means. I agree that the Gods must feel it is better (the best?) for everyone involved -- they feel humans, life in general, Lordran and all the other countries benefit from their rule. Still, I feel you cannot deny that Gwyn forces his rule upon humans. He immediately attacks anyone that comes near the First Flame! Feeling that your authority benefits your subjects does not exclude you from misguided actions nor does it exclude you from oppression and dictatorship.

 

In the prologue they mention that, first, we have the age of Ancients. However, there came Fire and with Fire, disparity. "Disparity" means "a great difference." Life against death, heat against cold and light against dark. Nito, Izalith and Gwyn find the Lord Souls and, together with betrayer Seath, defeat the dragon with the power of the Lord Souls. I think the disparity created by Fire is extended, in the sense that there is now also disparity between living creatures: those who take control and those being controlled. The Lord Souls were found within the Fire. Ending the Age of Fire and starting the Age of Darkness will perhaps take away this inequality and let humans govern themselves. After all, the Gods (Gwyn and his children, Nito, Izalith) and the humans (descendants from the Furtive Pygmy) both originated from the Dark. Inherently, they do not differ in their abilities -- they just found different souls and took a different path on what to do with these souls.

 

However, I think it is abundantly clear that the Age of Fire is unnatural and that Kaathe is objectively right on this manner. You need only to look at the end battle: you defeat Gwyn, Lord of Cynder, who sacrificed himself to keep the flame burning. This is unnatural. In fact, if you leave the flame unattended and walk away from it out of the boss area, within five seconds you will have let the Age of Fire end and the Age of Darkness will finally have started. It is also stated in the Prologue that "soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain."

 

 

It's interesting cause the Dark Sign might not be purely inherited and the Undead Asylum isn't the only place the undead were sent. [...] [T]he Depths was used for people who turned undead although they weren't born with the Dark Sign.
I think the undead are all branded by the Dark Sign. Only, not all of them have the strength to keep their sanity. The player is the chosen one who can, despite losing his human, still keep his sanity. Whereas other characters in the game lose their sanity once they turn hollow and become aggressive (e.g., Rhea's followers, Knight Oscar of Astora), the player remains in control of his actions and can even regain humanity to return to a human form. As I mentioned before, the 'Undead Asylum' is just a prison to hold the descendants from the Furtive Pygmy who have the power to end the Age of Fire.

 

Interestingly Havel was one of those.......

I do not think this is very strange but that might be because I have a different interpretation of the events and world of Dark Souls. Humans are all descendants from the Furtive Pygmy so they can all become carriers of the Dark Sign, they can all turn out to be an undead. Even Havel The Rock can. The fact that he fought side by side with Gwyn but still walks around, smashing his Dragon Tooth at the player means he lives for very long and, therefore, can be classified as undead. The fact that he attacks the player on sight can mean that he 1) is hollow and lost his mind or 2) is placed there spcifically by Gwyn to defeat any potential carrier of the Dark Sign who might be the chosen one.

 

I do agree that Havel's hatred for magic and Seath might also factor in. Perhaps Havel is hollow nor strategically placed to kill possible dangers to Gwyn -- perhaps he's just cast aside by his former good friend Gwyn, imprisoned and pissed off about that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

again, i'm not quite well versed yet. i haven't made it through much of the game.

maybe to decide which ending is the right one, which action you take, we should consider how the world was before the dragons were defeated. i don't know if it goes into that more. was it worse or better than the current world? what do our actions do? in which types of ways can we justify them and in which types of ways are they wrong? obviously there is something different, what with hollowing and the time or reality rifts that they explain multiplayer with.

i understand there is a character acting as a moral guide for each ending. how do their motivations appear? whose interests are each one holding? what do they assume will happen by the end of our quest? the 4 in the intro who fought the dragons, why did they do it?

also, i haven't joined any covenants yet. what do each of those and their motivations and means point to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the prologue they mention that, first, we have the age of Ancients. However, there came Fire and with Fire, disparity. "Disparity" means "a great difference." Life against death, heat against cold and light against dark.
This is a rather common theme in many tales that delve even the SLIGHTEST bit into philosophic content. "Chaos" in other words. Where you could argue for the popular conception of "Chaos" meaning "Havoc" or "Mayhem" (which implies destruction, pain, and torment), I find that to be entirely close-minded and backwards thinking. I believe that Dark Souls embraces the alternative (more rational) take on Chaos; that it's ("Difference"), "Entropy", "Anarchy". Like "Havoc" and "Mayhem", "Anarchy" has developed a popular negative connotation, but really it's simply referring to a Darwinian notion: survival of the fittest. This is a natural order of all things, and under "settled" circumstances, it's in no ways violent. But under other conditions (for example, revolution) it can be destructive. Either way, it embodies Chaos in that it could go EITHER way, essentially that it's inherently neutral.

 

As an entire SPELL SUBSET of the game revolves around Chaos, I take that as a sign of the story embracing the philosophic content of the subject. In Dark Souls, all things Chaos are POWERED by Humanity. And what is Humanity? As implied by the very "item" itself within the game, it's a curious and mysterious force, as the ability to accumulate it itself opens up questions as to whether or not we as human beings possessed it to begin with. Etc etc. But like mentioned before, I think it's all about choice. You can be a scourging menace, like Petrus, or Lautrec, who hunt down others to STEAL their humanity, or a saintly beacon of kinship, and the best qualities found within mankind, like Rhea, or Solaire. How you use it is where the nature of "the beast" becomes defined, not by some predisposed dogma. Thus, the Chaos of the game is as previously described: it's change, utility, randomness, choice, and human.

 

By extension of that assessment, the Age of Fire bringing about Chaos means that it took lifelessness and brought about life.

 

However, I think it is abundantly clear that the Age of Fire is unnatural and that Kaathe is objectively right on this manner. You need only to look at the end battle: you defeat Gwyn, Lord of Cynder, who sacrificed himself to keep the flame burning. This is unnatural. In fact, if you leave the flame unattended and walk away from it out of the boss area, within five seconds you will have let the Age of Fire end and the Age of Darkness will finally have started. It is also stated in the Prologue that "soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain."
The thing is, you're equating "unnatural" with "must come to an end".

 

Yes, the prolonged Age of Fire was unnatural. I don't think there's ANY debate in that. But to suggest that BECAUSE it's unnatural must therefore mean it's oppressive, or harmful, is reckless thinking. Take, for example, (actual) humanity, in general. We create and manipulate the world around us, which is ENTIRELY "unnatural". Suggesting that it be allowed to fall into disrepair and crumble would result in many, many horrific things. Like the Dark Ages before us, it would be cataclysmic, and not beneficial in the slightest. While regimes were toppled, society itself fell along with it. Modern society would die, and humanity would suffer famine, disease, and worst of all, ignorance.

 

This is more than likely the canonical consequence of the Age of Dark. As one interpretation of the MEANING of "Age of Fire" can be "The Age of Enlightenment", the following reversal of that era would be "The Age of Ignorance". As the very theme itself is BASED on the historical Dark Ages, this is not something that we should encourage, nor look forward to. It may be the natural course of events, but it's arguably in no ways "good". At best, just like the real Dark Ages, human progress has to start all over again (reinventing the wheel), and at worst, it's a physical manifestation of the old proverb: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it", since this course of events (building up to prosperity and rendering unto nothingness) is cyclical, just as the proverb details.

 

It's always possible, as you yourself pointed out, for the best of ruling intentions to be (or become) misguided, but at the same time the reverse is true. The pursuit of "liberation" and "freedom" can be wholly misguided, and the result of it will bring about NOTHING good, and instead suffering. You don't allow the arguably oppressive regimes to continue to exist because you think they deserve to, but because the alternative is far worse. In this (my) interpretation of the Dark Souls Lore, Gwyn's reign isn't EVEN arguably oppressive, so the best of cases gets thrown out the window, along with embracing the worst of things to come. The downfall of society and death of countless is the "natural" course of events, but that doesn't make it the ideal choice by ANY stretch of the imagination.

 

we should consider how the world was before the dragons were defeated. i don't know if it goes into that more.
You'll eventually come to a (somewhat hidden) location in the game that's heavily implied to be "what the world once was, during the Age of Dragons". It's a lifeless expanse of nothingness, dead and open waters, and still skies perforated by the roots of monolithic giant tress. And this stretches out as far as the eye can see, in any direction. The only inhabitants of this place are primordial, ancient creatures. It remains, in a way, beneath the now bustling, thriving, and ever-changing surface of the world that has become, but can visiting it leads to no purpose or reward. (Naturally, as part of a GAME, there's reason to go there, loot-wise, but that has no bearing on the actually important material or purpose of the game/story.)

 

As such, it's kinda obvious to look at this and think "yea, something is better than nothing". Only in this respect, it's more literal in that there really WAS nothing but nothingness, until the Age of Fire began.

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i spoke to frampt for the first time yesterday. it said something about me being a chosen undead and wanting to end the undead curse or whatever it is. it said that's what i could do. i don't know exactly how people came to be undead. i haven't talked to the other ancient guy yet. what caused this situation where everyone becomes hollow? is the world i'm in sort of like a heaven compared to reality? these zombie things are apparently people who have become hollow. does it just happen to them after they die? what is supposed to happen when a human dies, like when the bonfires weren't in use?

 

i also joined the chaos covenant. for this one, you offer your humanity to a disabled spider lady who is the sister of the fire spider you kill. she was apparently disabled by swallowing something (i don't remember what it was) in order to save something. she's sort of a martyr. there aren't any requirements for how you obtain humanity to offer her. she's also a firekeeper. she has a servant/guard who is one of those egg sac guys. she must have taken some different stance than her sister, considering her cooperation. i can't understand what she says because i don't have the ring.

also, i talked to the pyromancer who sells me spells. he talks about how pyromancy is a more natural and primitive art than magic. sort of more spiritual and emotional.

Edited by jp_728
Link to comment
Share on other sites

what caused this situation where everyone becomes hollow? is the world i'm in sort of like a heaven compared to reality? these zombie things are apparently people who have become hollow. does it just happen to them after they die? what is supposed to happen when a human dies, like when the bonfires weren't in use?

1) Hollowization is a theme among many mythologies. It's generally (in modern media) a state of undeath where one loses their free will and/or personality. In Dark Souls, it's just a form of death after death. i.e. Death of the self (identity) after Death of the form (body, life force, etc). In undeath, you can retain your senses, and use humanity to help reacquire a (fake) human form and facilitate in keeping control of yourself, but the longer you remain undead, the more you will devolve into a mindless animal; a Hollow. It's just a "natural" progression, nothing more. As many NPCs you will encounter in the game will explain to you, the "curse" is not entirely feared or despised by those it afflicts. They become effectively immortal in a sense, so as long as they can stave off going Hollow, most enjoy their extended afterlives!

 

2) Yes (though not "Heaven", per se, more like "afterlife" without a good/bad context). Lordran is not a country in the world of Dark Souls. It is a separate plane of existence. It MIGHT have once been a realm where mortals lived (as evidenced with important historical ruins, such as New Londo), but if that's the case, it has receded to its present state of not existing in reality, or time, as it is. Just as the narrator explains when you first escape the Asylum, Lordran is a mythical land of legend. Mortals cannot reach Lordran, just as souls not "cursed" by the Dark Sign can never reach Lordran.

 

3) See #1.

 

4) See #2. When they die, those branded with the Dark Sign are reborn at the Undead Asylum. I can go into this later, if that's at all puzzling. As for those WITHOUT the Dark Sign... no one knows, as the game focuses on the Undead. For example, in Demon's Souls, had you died outside of Boletaria, that would be it; you'd die, your soul would do whatever it does in the Demon's Souls universe. But as you died in Boletaria, the Maiden in Black is able to recall your soul, and bind you to the Nexus, thus preserving (dooming) your soul to continually return to the Nexus whenever you die. Thus "saving" you from actual death. In Dark Souls, it's a different mechanism, but the affects it has on the story are the same. We understand what happens to Undead who were branded with the Dark Sign in life; that's the focal point of the game. But what happens to those without it is of no consequence to the story.

 

Nice to be able to answer FRESH questions about the backstory/setting for a change! =)

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have so much to add on. But I love this game. Trying to beat it lvl 1. Anyways. I like to think about Anor Londo as Mt.Olympus as earlier said. You can also say that it's kind of inspired from lord of the rings. The chance for it to be wrong is like 50/50 kind of.

 

Havel got locked into the bottom of the tower. For his own good, of course. It can be meant ironically. At least if you look at that sentence. But I'm talking shit I think. So I'll just link a video from the user "epicnamebro". A lot of things in those videos makes sense for me at least. He have just started the series. And no, there's no wild guessing there.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXqb6NAdVzo]Dark Souls Lore: The Followers of Lord Gwyn [spoilerS] - YouTube[/ame]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for that video....

 

I've seen lots of EpicNameBro's videos before... mostly for help when I needed to find "walkthroughs" for item locations that I couldn't make sense of based on the directions I'd been given. But man, something about his voice just grated on my nerves... I recognized that was a shallow thing, but I simply couldn't get over certain sounds he'd make while watching his vids... >_<

 

Also there was the hip hop intros he'd make, with the added irritant, the extremely abused-by-trolls "Well What Is It?" gesture... but that's personal taste dislikes.

 

That said, that was a pretty awesome collection of insight! I was unaware of the (missing in English versions) detail that Ciarin was female. But, for the same reasons, I don't take EVERYTHING he said as full of weight. He put an awful lot of emphasis on phrases such as "of course" and "turned undead", when they could have been random turns of phrase chosen by the localization team, just as they "chose" to neglect translating "she/her" for Ciarin. Still, what he DID piece together from the less-flimsy bits was quite intriguing. I found a few moments slightly inconsistent, but he put forth a strong effort, and it was mostly solid.

 

It DOES point out that there are the possibilities of additional Ages, or at the very least, other battlefields that were implied, but not covered by the story. The introduction seems to express that the War with the Dragons and the coming of the Age of Fire were in direct sequence of one another. However all mythologies delve deeper, so it's not to say that this story doesn't allow for that.

 

Good stuff. For once, I AM looking forward to more videos of his, if he makes more of the "Lore" series! =D

Edited by Johnny Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't seem to be able to load the 3rd page, for whatever reason (ongoing editing?) but I guess I'll just address some of the questions that seem to have slipped through the cracks.

 

Who are all the daughters of chaos? The witch of Izalith tried to recreate the first flame. The Bed of Chaos is the result. So the witch is the only character in the intro that isn't a boss.

 

1. Quelaag

2. Quelaag's sister. The one you talk to for the covenant.

3. Quelana. Teaches you pyromancy. The only daughter that didn't go mad. she actually keeps her head.

4. Corpse by Ceaseless Discharge where you get the gold hemmed set.

...

5. Hollow in Lost Izalith that attacks you.

There is the Witch of Izalith, who (wherever she is) will never be found. Either she was killed, or consumed by her reckless creation: the Bed of Chaos. Her magic was likely devoured, regardless. In the course of its growing beyond the control of its creators, the the chaos magic that it exuded (or perhaps as the result of a more deliberate, sinister experimentation, similar to Seath's actions?) overtook and mutated all those it swallowed. All of the Witches of Izalith were thought dead or overtaken, but 3 (and only 3) managed to escape.

 

1) Quelaana, through her own admission, fled before the situation spiraled out of control, and thus was spared the horrors of her sisters. This also left her without a clue as to the whereabouts of any possible surviving sisters, as she assumed them all to be lost to the Flame of Chaos.

 

2) Quelaag, having managed to escape from the Flame with one of her sisters (3), was still rendered PARTIALLY transformed by the Flame. As can be judged by the manner in which the remaining human half of Quelaag interacts with her twisted and transformed demonic half, it's likely they are 2 separate entities, bound together in a single body. The Demon still works with Quelaag, as self-preservation is her single-highest priority.

 

3) The White Witch, also known by her followers as "My Fair Lady". She escaped with Quelaag, and like her sister, was partially transformed by the Flame of Chaos. Unlike Quelaag, who acted solely on self-interest, the White Witch was saddened by the plight of the dwellers of Blighttown, and those afflicted with the Blightpus, especially. She sacrificed herself to cure them, so while burdened by their egg sacks, they were otherwise spared from a pained existence. In exchange, The White Witch was mortally weakened, and left paralyzed, blind, and stricken with unending pain. The eggs from the within the Demon she was attached to were also rendered lifeless, and so she suffers their pain, as well. Her Followers offer her humanity to help alleviate her suffering, if only slightly. Tragically, by his/her own actions, the Chosen Undead also leaves the White Witch totally abandoned and alone, after the death of her sister, Quelaag.

 

What's left of the sisters is unknown. From the comments made by Eingyi, Ceaseless Discharge is simply a guard dog, of sorts, created by the Flame of Chaos, as is the Centipede Demon. The former is referred to as "the molten giant", so no one regards it as holding any importance or sentience beyond existing as a manifestation of the lava river's "Flame", and serving its purpose of guarding the ruins of Izalith.

 

Because of the curious nature of bodies not being strictly TIED to their owners upon their demise, the corpse that carries the Gold Hemmed set might have been one of the other sisters, or even Quelaag, herself!

 

The faceless Pyromancer that attacks you outside of the den of the Bed of Chaos is very unlikely tied to the witches of Izalith at all. This Pyromancer is NOT a Hollow, and serves as a guard to the Flame of Chaos, so this discounts the possibility of her being any of the witches. At best, some speculation has stated that it is either a surviving witch, like Quelaana, but unlike Quelaana, she either willfully follows Bed of Chaos, or (more likely) sees Bed of Chaos as her mother, mistakenly, and wants to protect "her". The ONLY clue to her identity is the catalyst in her possession which is dropped upon her demise, but she could have claimed it for her own, just as the Chosen Undead claims their spoils as they journey onwards toward their final confrontation with Gwyn.

 

Gnyg said that EpicNameBro's Lore videos have now also included the subject of the Daughters of Chaos, so I'll take a looksy when possible, and see how my knowledge of them compares with his assessments.

 

Who is the Everlasting Dragon? Why is he immortal? Did he go into hiding in Ash Lake during the war? His covenant is about making you be more like a dragon so he is trying to rebuild a dragon army to go against Gwyn again?

The motivations of the Ancient Dragon are unknown, but the motivations of its followers ARE made clear by the "rumors", as told by Domhnall. Though the followers of the Dragon worship it, as part of their cultist reverence, and attempts to become dragons, themselves (which they can, partially, though only through a primitive dragonoid form), it's never specified if this is part of the Ancient Dragon's motives, or if it simply humors them.

 

As the Dragons themselves neither offered anything to the world, nor did they clash with any force at any point, and they stood as omnipotent and immortal deities that lorded over the lifeless, nothingness-filled world, Gwyn's War with the Dragons was entirely instigated on his end. Does the Ancient Dragon, as the only surviving deity of this Age, have lingering resentment? Or does it even bother with the changing of the Ages? All that's known is that it resides in the nether of the world, left to its own devices due to how secluded it is. What's left of the primitive, primordial world that existed in the Age of Dragons is its domain, and it seems perfectly content exist there, and nothing more.

 

I personally never read into any of the information/backstory surrounding the Ancient Dragon as alluding to any grudge. But the only force that's confirmed to clash with the will of the Gods (and, consequently, Lord Gwyn) is Kaathe, and he makes his purpose known to you. The Ancient Dragon, on the other hand, will not speak a word, and simply offers you power, should you acquiesce to its whims. So, at most, it seems the Ancient Dragon simply wishes to enjoy being worshiped, and nothing more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact the centipede demon was created by the Orange Charred Ring when it came in touch with the lava. If you look at this description: "An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage. Since his sores were

inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born."

As taken from the Dark Souls wiki since I don't have that ring in posession.

But the question then is. Who is he?

 

And I haven't any clues about Patches. Could he have traveled all the way to Lordran from Boletaria? I don't think they are so easily connected these two games but if he'd traveled all the way they must be off somehow same time-era. But that's just speculation. There could be no link there at all.

 

I'm a nice guy who simple can't get enough of this game. Since I'm that I'll link to another user who have a lot of lore videos. Haven't seem them all but it seems like she knows what she's talking about. They seems to be very interesting at least.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b_hBNl_RhU&feature=related]Dark Souls Story Prt. 1 Setting - YouTube[/ame]

Edited by Gnyg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...