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Lore Discussion Thread *Spoilers*


ShadowAFC

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SPOILER TAGS ARE NOT USED IN THIS THREAD!

You have entered a spoiler tag free zone about the game Dark Souls. This thread has been created to discuss anything Dark Souls related. You are permitted to discuss key plot points, boss battles and any part of the story openly without the use of SPOILER TAGS. Please note, this is not a "How do I..." thread. Any posts like this will be deleted.

 

In summary, this is a SPOILER TAG free zone. You do not have to use SPOILER TAGS within this thread. This thread is immune.

 

__________________________________________________

 

Regulars in the Dark Souls forum may remember that we had a thread to discuss the lore in the game. This thread has been created for the same purpose.

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Fuck yeah, spoiler free I likey.

 

There are several references to the previous character we played in Dark Souls. Especially with the description of sublime bone dust which is creepy :p

 

So many other inferences can be made, such as heides tower being the remnants of anor londo.

 

I've noticed a lot of other cool dialogue, the rat leaders speech about humanity is one that comes to mind.

 

I'm going to spend a lot of time in this thread :) ahem after i've beaten the game that is.

Edited by jaesub
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Fuck yeah, spoiler free I likey.

 

There are several references to the previous character we played in Dark Souls. Especially with the description of sublime bone dust which is creepy :p

 

What does the description say? I don't remember reading it when I had one of them.

 

So many other inferences can be made, such as heides tower being the remnants of anor londo.

 

It certainly looks similar, especially with Ornstein being one of the bosses in that area as the 'Old Dragonslayer'... also I think The Gutter and how you get to it feels a lot like Blighttown.

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What does the description say? I don't remember reading it when I had one of them.

 

"Charred, ashen bones. Cast them into the Far Fire in Majula to increase the HP restored with each use of your flask. They say these are the remains of a saint who cast himself into the bonfire. But we will never know for sure, for soot and ashes tell no story."

 

Pretty interesting eh? :cool:

 

This will be the last post I make until i've beaten the game at least once :p

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"Charred, ashen bones. Cast them into the Far Fire in Majula to increase the HP restored with each use of your flask. They say these are the remains of a saint who cast himself into the bonfire. But we will never know for sure, for soot and ashes tell no story."

 

Pretty interesting eh? :cool:

 

This will be the last post I make until i've beaten the game at least once :p

 

Interesting indeed.

 

I'm also really curious about The Last Giant's lore. It seems to me like before he was the last one left there were quite a few of them because i've found 3 dead giants in the surrounding area, and with the Last Giant he has several weapon sticking out of his back so it seems like humans must've killed them all except him because he managed to escape but not without some injuries. Then maybe he instantly attacks when you enter because he sees you as a threat.

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What does the description say? I don't remember reading it when I had one of them.

 

 

 

It certainly looks similar, especially with Ornstein being one of the bosses in that area as the 'Old Dragonslayer'... also I think The Gutter and how you get to it feels a lot like Blighttown.

 

Gutter reminded me a lot more of Valley Of Defilement from Demons Souls than it did Blight Town.

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It's unverifiable, but I feel that Drangleic stands where Lordran once did. Many characters mention that 'countless kingdoms have risen and fell on this land.' Not to mention many of the areas are similar to levels from the prequel:

-Things Betwixt and Shrine of Amania remind me of Ash Lake

-Forest of Fallen Giants would be Undead Burg/Parish

-The Gutter could be what used to be Blighttown

-Heide's Tower of Flame has similar architecture to Anor Londo. It is hypothesized that the area is the remains of the ancient city. The cathedral looks eerily similar and there's Ornstein. The knights walking about are similar to the Giant Sentinels of old and are wearing rusty gear. Licia states the area had a different name in the past, I believe. Finally, the Blue Sentinels are based here and claim their origins lie there. They punish the sinful. They are probably the future Darkmoon Blades.

 

-

 

Furthermore, there are connections between the Lords from Dark Souls and the Old Ones of Dark Souls II. Nito corresponds to the Rotten. The Lost Sinner is one of the witches of Izalith. Dear Frega is related to Sheath the Scaleless. That leaves the Old Iron King and the Four Kings.

 

The lore presumes that Vendrick stole the Lord Souls or the Lord Vessel that contained them. The Lost Sinner the Izalith Witch's lord soul, Rotten has Nito's, Duke has Seath's part of Gwyn's, and the Iron King has the 4 Kings of New Londo's / Gwyn's. They're only fragments of the true souls. The final boss Nashandra happens to be part of Manus as well. Vendrick was trying to stop the curse of undeath by using the Lord Souls because he was tricked by Nashandra. Nashandra wants to usher in the age of dark because DkS2 presumes the Link the Fire ending happened (as the cat hints/explains.) She tricked him into stealing it so she could consume all the souls and gain total power/become whole.

 

The cat in Majula is Alvina. I mean, besides the obvious similarity of each being a talking cat, they both deal with covenants. The Silvercat Ring description heavily alludes to this also. That said, after lighting all four primal fires, the Majula cat starts commenting on the Old Ones you've killed. Much of the speculation stems from these conversations. And it's further reinforced by subtle hints from the devs: when you beat the Old Ones on NG+ or in bonfire intensity 2 (off an Ascetic), you get a different soul.

 

  • Lost Sinner as a Witch of Izalith (possibly Quelana): Now, the Sinner is female. Also, the Bed of Chaos bug is shown in the pre-fight cutscene. On NG+, pyromancers help her during the fight. On NG+, she drops Old Witch Soul. The cat says the lost sinner was punished for lighting the first flame (relation to the witches of Izalith, whom tampered with such things. The Lost Sinner's gloves allegedly improve pyromancy strength.
  • The Rotten as Nito: "The one you seek is in that hole, far below here. I'm sure he's plumb Rotten by now!" They have similar feel as a boss: slow, lumbering mass that uses black spells. NG+ drops Nito's soul, allegedly. They both preside over underground areas, including catacombs.
  • The Duke's Dear Frega as one of Sheath's creations: Sheath was the Duke. The cat doesn't mention Frega, but instead mentions Sheath indirectly. Talking about one who betrayed his kind because he coveted something and went mad in the pursuit (scales, research). Brightstone Cove has many crystals and weird experiments (spider-men). The area the spider is fought in looks like Crystal Cave's boss room, complete with Primordial Crystal (replaced by a spiderweb). There is a crystal in the room after the fight. There is a dead dragon in the room with a memory of what looks like the dragons after being defeated by the Lords in Dark Souls I's intro, after Sheath betrayed them (look at the crags, etc). On NG+, she drops Old Paledrake Soul. Ornifex lives in the same area and claims a 'pale beast' created her kind. The Cove as a whole is probably connected to Sheath.
  • Old Iron King as Four Kings: Each of these once commanded a city that was consumed by death and submerged by the dark. One in fire and the other to the abyss. They've been corrupted by the curse.

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*snip*

 

I can't personally verify this but I've heard plenty of people say that beating those enemies on NG+ makes them actually drop the previous Lord Souls, specifically the one I've heard mentioned is The Rotten dropping the "Old Dead One's Soul"

 

Take that with a pinch of salt though because I haven't personally verified that myself.

 

A note I'd like to make about The Last Giant is his anklets, he was clearly imprisoned. Combine that with the fact there's only one other Giant that we meet that remotely resembles his size and stature (Giant Lord) and the fact that The Last Giant has clearly been in quite the battle. I don't think it's too far of a logical leap to assume that The Last Giant and Giant Lord might be one in the same.

 

I'm unsure whether or not I think Drangleic = Lordran though yet, a lot of people seem to think it might be Vinheim. I'm really not decided either way yet, there's a lot of conflicting evidence on both sides. I'll wait until we uncover more to really throw my hat into that ring.

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I can't personally verify this but I've heard plenty of people say that beating those enemies on NG+ makes them actually drop the previous Lord Souls, specifically the one I've heard mentioned is The Rotten dropping the "Old Dead One's Soul"

 

Take that with a pinch of salt though because I haven't personally verified that myself.

 

A note I'd like to make about The Last Giant is his anklets, he was clearly imprisoned. Combine that with the fact there's only one other Giant that we meet that remotely resembles his size and stature (Giant Lord) and the fact that The Last Giant has clearly been in quite the battle. I don't think it's too far of a logical leap to assume that The Last Giant and Giant Lord might be one in the same.

 

I'm unsure whether or not I think Drangleic = Lordran though yet, a lot of people seem to think it might be Vinheim. I'm really not decided either way yet, there's a lot of conflicting evidence on both sides. I'll wait until we uncover more to really throw my hat into that ring.

I can now verify it. Sinner drops "Old Witch Soul" which can make Chaos Blade. Old Iron King drops "Old King Soul" which makes Gwyn weapons. Freja drops "Old Paledrake Soul" which makes Moonlight Greatsword. Rotten drops "Old Dead One Soul" which makes something similar to DS1's Gravesword.

 

The connection is truly there. The souls of Sheath, Gwyn, Nito and a Witch of Izalith have been passed down and are still powerful.

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Gutter reminded me a lot more of Valley Of Defilement from Demons Souls than it did Blight Town.

 

Exactly, I wonder why they put so many Demon Souls references in this game especially with the dogs in the cart in Aldia's Keep. That was a blatant reference. Oh and Velstadt's helmet looking very similar to Garl Vinland's.

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It's unverifiable, but I feel that Drangleic stands where Lordran once did. Many characters mention that 'countless kingdoms have risen and fell on this land.' Not to mention many of the areas are similar to levels from the prequel:

-Things Betwixt and Shrine of Amania remind me of Ash Lake

-Forest of Fallen Giants would be Undead Burg/Parish

-The Gutter could be what used to be Blighttown

-Heide's Tower of Flame has similar architecture to Anor Londo. It is hypothesized that the area is the remains of the ancient city. The cathedral looks eerily similar and there's Ornstein. The knights walking about are similar to the Giant Sentinels of old and are wearing rusty gear. Licia states the area had a different name in the past, I believe. Finally, the Blue Sentinels are based here and claim their origins lie there. They punish the sinful. They are probably the future Darkmoon Blades.

 

-

 

Furthermore, there are connections between the Lords from Dark Souls and the Old Ones of Dark Souls II. Nito corresponds to the Rotten. The Lost Sinner is one of the witches of Izalith. Dear Frega is related to Sheath the Scaleless. That leaves the Old Iron King and the Four Kings.

 

 

 

The cat in Majula is Alvina. I mean, besides the obvious similarity of each being a talking cat, they both deal with covenants. The Silvercat Ring description heavily alludes to this also. That said, after lighting all four primal fires, the Majula cat starts commenting on the Old Ones you've killed. Much of the speculation stems from these conversations. And it's further reinforced by subtle hints from the devs: when you beat the Old Ones on NG+ or in bonfire intensity 2 (off an Ascetic), you get a different soul.

 

  • Lost Sinner as a Witch of Izalith (possibly Quelana): Now, the Sinner is female. Also, the Bed of Chaos bug is shown in the pre-fight cutscene. On NG+, pyromancers help her during the fight. On NG+, she drops Old Witch Soul. The cat says the lost sinner was punished for lighting the first flame (relation to the witches of Izalith, whom tampered with such things. The Lost Sinner's gloves allegedly improve pyromancy strength.
  • The Rotten as Nito: "The one you seek is in that hole, far below here. I'm sure he's plumb Rotten by now!" They have similar feel as a boss: slow, lumbering mass that uses black spells. NG+ drops Nito's soul, allegedly. They both preside over underground areas, including catacombs.
  • The Duke's Dear Frega as one of Sheath's creations: Sheath was the Duke. The cat doesn't mention Frega, but instead mentions Sheath indirectly. Talking about one who betrayed his kind because he coveted something and went mad in the pursuit (scales, research). Brightstone Cove has many crystals and weird experiments (spider-men). The area the spider is fought in looks like Crystal Cave's boss room, complete with Primordial Crystal (replaced by a spiderweb). There is a crystal in the room after the fight. There is a dead dragon in the room with a memory of what looks like the dragons after being defeated by the Lords in Dark Souls I's intro, after Sheath betrayed them (look at the crags, etc). On NG+, she drops Old Paledrake Soul. Ornifex lives in the same area and claims a 'pale beast' created her kind. The Cove as a whole is probably connected to Sheath.
  • Old Iron King as Four Kings: Each of these once commanded a city that was consumed by death and submerged by the dark. One in fire and the other to the abyss. They've been corrupted by the curse.

 

 

The Shrine of Amania reminded me of Valley of Defilement with all the damn singing.

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Yesterday I was reading the official guide, it provides some interesting information about the Lore!

I don't have it right here, but for example it says that Nashandra was born from a Manus' shard, and she's like his daughter.

The rotten is a soul that lived long ago and now amass souls and dead bodies thrown in the gutter and below.

 

If you want I can post them later, the lore this time is really really interesting!

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1:

 

Remember the waterway after the tower bonfire where you meet the priestess the first time?

 

Above the second stairs up theres a crushed door, seems familiar?

 

The door right before the fools idol area from demon souls, at the ways where you could find 'the liar.

 

Thats right, its actually the tower of latria!

 

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AsNSiI3OsWU/0.jpg

Latria interior. (during gargoyle infestation)

 

 

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb228/Calaman/Calaman043/latriaareanomoregargoylesds2_zpsa9d2bd12.png

Heide interior. (after gargoyle infestation, they relocated to the bell tower)

Heide.

-

2:

 

the rotten IS gravelord nito:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/10704823933_0a80e690ac_o.jpg

Nito.

 

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/PA2T1M3ydFA/maxresdefault.jpg

Rotten.

 

He just got fat feeding on souls in the gutter.

 

-

Edited by Calamaistr
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The more I read about the Lore, the more I end up with this theory; could the Land of Giants be somehow connected with Demon's Souls broken Archstone?

 

The DeS Lore states that

 

The Northern Lands were once home to the race of mighty giants. They lived in relative peace with the rest of Boletaria, until the thick, colorless fog swept in and blanketed their domain. The Northern Lands were the first to succumb to the spread of Demons, and in an effort to contain the madness, Boletaria sent hundreds of thousands of its finest knights to the great kingdom to fend off the threat. The effort was for naught, and the Archstone connecting to this land was later destroyed as a last-ditch attempt to contain the chaos. It did not succeed.

 

The sixth Archstone was somehow connected to the rest of the Dark Souls world as we know it;

- The land of Giants

- Drangleic

 

Long ago, in a walled off land far to the north.

A great king built a great kingdom.

I believe they called it Drangleic.

 

- Lordran, where Nashandra comes from; she was generated by Manus, and Chancellor Wellager states that she came from a faraway land across the sea.

 

Both Lordan and Drangleic could be the same land, but I think they're different.

They're bot affected by an age of fire, or an ancient flame, and have four great "lords"; an old witch, and old king, an undead and a pale dragon. Different forms of the same beings, generated in different (but at the same time similiar) areas, with different shapes, but connected by the Flame and Souls.

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I just went to get a boss soul weapon from Ornifex and noticed the dolls in the Brightstone Cove room.

 

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/fRWkv4pHIKk/mqdefault.jpg

 

They look kind of similar to the peculiar doll you had to use to get to the Painted World in Dark Souls 1.

 

http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/2146.png/273356916/2146.png

 

This got me thinking about Ornifex and how she looks very similar if not exactly like the crow demon's.

 

I haven't reached a conclusion for myself yet but i'm getting there. It's very strange that you find the Judgement set in the Painted World and also find it in the Dragon Shrine behind a pharros door.

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In the Majula mansion there is a bunch of shards or pieces of a broken something. It's right where you'd see the skeleton and where you get your estus flask shard. Other people have caught onto what that probably is cause I've seen some messages that hint at it. "Look Carefully! Visions of dark" or something like that.

 

Before I say what it is......think carefully of what that area looks like. Where you see the cartographer and the entire ground area. White sand right?

 

Where in the Dark Souls do you see sand like that? Ash Lake would be one. And at the Kiln of the First Flame.

 

With that in mind, and if you look closely at the broken pieces, it looks very much like it'd be the shattered altar in Firelink from Dark Souls.

 

Now think of how the cartographer notes the fire that shows up to mark places on the map. It seems to make sense that the final bonfire in Dark Souls would've been able to create the phenomena Cale the Cartographer is witnessing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Straid said something interesting when I freed him in NG+ (might have said it in NG too but I skipped all his dialogue to get my magics). He basically suggested that the Lost Bastille was, in fact, the Undead Asylum. He spoke at length about (paraphrasing) how people hated anything that was different and punished them all by locking them in 'this place'.

 

If anyone has yet to de-petrify him in NG+ (I left Sinner till last this time to minimise backtracking), would they be able to post the correct quotes? If not, I'll try to remember to grab them on ++

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In the Majula mansion there is a bunch of shards or pieces of a broken something. It's right where you'd see the skeleton and where you get your estus flask shard. Other people have caught onto what that probably is cause I've seen some messages that hint at it. "Look Carefully! Visions of dark" or something like that.

 

Before I say what it is......think carefully of what that area looks like. Where you see the cartographer and the entire ground area. White sand right?

 

Where in the Dark Souls do you see sand like that? Ash Lake would be one. And at the Kiln of the First Flame.

 

With that in mind, and if you look closely at the broken pieces, it looks very much like it'd be the shattered altar in Firelink from Dark Souls.

 

Now think of how the cartographer notes the fire that shows up to mark places on the map. It seems to make sense that the final bonfire in Dark Souls would've been able to create the phenomena Cale the Cartographer is witnessing.

 

 

some people have speculated that those shards are the Lord Vessel

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Further to my last post, I've got the quotes of Straid that led me to the idea:

 

Drangleic, I’ve never heard the name. Is that what they call this place now? Very good... very good indeed.

 

The cursed ones were imprisoned within this land. Of course, you came of your own free will. The people feared the cursed ones like a plague. Some people would rather keep dreadful things out of sight, out of mind. In the end they swept them up and corralled them here. So very typical of meek minds, don’t you think?

 

Once people became aware of their own frailty, they seized anybody they found undesirable, cursed or no, and impounded them here. Whoever posed even the slightest threat, was removed. All so that they could sleep better at night. They even turned the great Straid into stone.

 

Many kingdoms rose and fell on this tract of earth; mine was by no means the first. Anything that has a beginning also has an end. No flame, however brilliant, does not one day splutter and fade. But then, from the ashes, the flame reignites and a new kingdom is born, sporting a new face. It is all a curse! And it is your cursed flesh that will inherit the flame.

 

So, how long was I sat petrified? Long enough for the old kingdom to have crumbled, I see... Why didn’t anyone wake me sooner?

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