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Story Discussion Thread *MASSIVE SPOILERS INSIDE*


Mendel

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SPOILER TAGS ARE NOT USED IN THIS THREAD!

You have entered a spoiler tag free zone about the game Bioshock 1. This thread has been created to discuss anything Bioshock 1 related. You are permitted to discuss key plot points, boss battles and any part of the story openly without the use of SPOILER TAGS. Please note, this is not a "How do I..." thread. Any posts like this will be deleted.

 

In summary, this is a SPOILER TAG free zone. You do not have to use SPOILER TAGS within this thread.

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Edited by Mendel
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Thanks a bunch for creating the thread Mendel, much appreciated.

 

That said I'd like to start right away with talking about some of the events that intrugue me the most. For now I'll just keep it with the plot twist when confronting Andrew Ryan:

 

First point, the way I interpret it is that Andrew Ryan chose to be killed by Jack, thus showing that he is a man. That part isn't confusing because right at the beginning of that level he pretty much admitted that Atlas defeated him (still refusing to give him his city though). However what is unclear to me is why he admitted defeat in the first place? I mean Atlas was on the verge of defeating Ryan because of Jack doing good handiwork. But wasn't the meeting between Jack and Ryan a turning point that showed that Ryan could easily stop Atlas' assassin and even control him too like Atlas did? So why admit defeat and letting yourself get killed when you just stopped the one that brought the defeat in the first place? That I don't undestand.

 

Another thing that I don't understand is how Ryan knew that Atlas manipulated Jack via the "Would you kindly" mind control. The Atlas alias was purposely created to pretend to be a working class hero, a man of the people. Such a person should never know of the top secret mind control project Dr. Suchong did for Fontaine. So how did Ryan know that much about Atlas while being in the unclear that Atlas is Fontaine who he thought to be dead?

 

And the last thing in the scene I don't get is Ryans words respectively intentions in his end. It's already weird that he makes Jack dance like a puppet by saying "run", "stop", "turn" and ultimately "kill" without adding the "would you kindly" but what really confuses me is how the "a man chooses, a slave obeys" fits in this situation. He gives Jack the golf club, orders him to kill him (as said, without the "w.y.k.") and then when Jack is doing exactly that he shouts at him "OBEY!!!" as if Jack wasn't obedient. I don't really get that. What makes it more confusing was Ryan's first statement "was a man sent to kill or a slave to obey?" I mean where is the difference? Jack was indeed sent to kill but by doing this he was obedient to Atlas, so how does that make him a man that chooses and not a slave that obeys?

 

No matter I look at it, it's a strong scene with strong words but I by myself can't seem to find that everything that's said is coherent. Unless of course I'm missing something. I really like to talk about plot points of games I enjoy, especially if there's parts that I don't comprehend. So might somebody please enlighten me... would you kindly?^^

Edited by Ivotas
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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree that the whole scene with Ryan is a bit weird and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ryan could've told Jack to kill himself hypothetically.

 

Maybe Ryan ordered him to kill him to show that he did have a degree of control (as it was clear that he lost control of Rapture).

 

Still, the story in this game is fantastic. One of the best I have ever played through.

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I agree that the story is still very great. It's just those parts mentioned above that didn't make much sense to me so I was hoping that I was maybe understanding something wrong.

 

On a different subject, the ending. Now I'm not of the people who thinks that the ending sucked (I actually found the good ending quite touching), however I never really could relate to the Little Sisters as the main theme of the game. I know they were important but personally the war between Ryan and Atlas and the downfall of Rapture were not only the most interesting theme to me, it also appeared to be the actual main theme. And then with the ending I was like "wait, the Little Sisters were the main theme? They always felt like a subplot to me". Anybody else felt like that?

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I don't agree with you for a simple reason: the main theme of the game wasn't the war between Ryan and Atlas, or the fall of Rapture. Was exatly about you, and your conscience.

 

I just felt that the actions you did during the game should have a posterior effect, rather than getting a specific trophy, the good ending and less ADAM to spend.

 

On the subject of Ryan letting himself to be killed by Jack, I think that he was trying to teach his son a lesson. That's why he chose to die by his hands. On this matter, the "conscience analisys" plot takes a great boost, since the game shows that even the apparent worst person can think of others he cares.

 

And, if you think more deeply, Andrew Ryan wasn't that bad. What he did was create a world where people would't be controlled by anyone, be it politically, religiously comanded. The way he has executed his ideas are where the main flaw lies.

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I don't agree with you for a simple reason: the main theme of the game wasn't the war between Ryan and Atlas, or the fall of Rapture. Was exatly about you, and your conscience.

 

Well I personally found that figuring out what's going on in Rapture was the most interesting thing in the Plot and that was the whole Ryan/Fontaine power struggle thing. The Little Sisters never struck as that interesting from a story standpoint. At least to me they didn't.

 

On the subject of Ryan letting himself to be killed by Jack, I think that he was trying to teach his son a lesson. That's why he chose to die by his hands. On this matter, the "conscience analisys" plot takes a great boost, since the game shows that even the apparent worst person can think of others he cares.

 

Don't really get that to be honest.

 

And, if you think more deeply, Andrew Ryan wasn't that bad. What he did was create a world where people would't be controlled by anyone, be it politically, religiously comanded. The way he has executed his ideas are where the main flaw lies.

 

He wasn't that good either because creating a place not bound by morality simply does not strike me as something a good person would do.

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I too found the Fontaine/Atlas vs Ryan story much more interesting. The story of how Rapture was created and then destoyed is fantastic. I love listening to the audio diaries. So haunting and interesting.

 

I've started my third playthrough and have just entered Neptune's Bounty. The site of that strung-up corpse with 'smuggler' written by him is a welcome introduction to that stage. Very creepy.

 

So I decided to buy this when it was added to the PSN store recently... so glad I did, epic game, should have bought it earlier. One of my favourite games.

 

Completed it just now. Really enjoyed the story, gonna check out the other ending(s?) on YouTube.

 

Will buy BioShock 2 soon!

 

Better late than never!

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  • 2 weeks later...

On Monday I killed Ryan for the third time. Throughout the whole scene he refers to 'a man chooses, a slave obeys'. By having Jack kill him, he was proving that he will die as a man, whilst Jack will live as a slave. He clearly preferred the former, as so many people would.

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On Monday I killed Ryan for the third time. Throughout the whole scene he refers to 'a man chooses, a slave obeys'. By having Jack kill him, he was proving that he will die as a man, whilst Jack will live as a slave. He clearly preferred the former, as so many people would.

 

That part with Ryan being a man who chose this path is clear. However what I don't really get is the line "was a man sent to kill or a slave?" I mean Jack's desire to kill Ryan is clearly not his choice, so how can someone who was sent to kill be a man by Ryan's definition?

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That part with Ryan being a man who chose this path is clear. However what I don't really get is the line "was a man sent to kill or a slave?" I mean Jack's desire to kill Ryan is clearly not his choice, so how can someone who was sent to kill be a man by Ryan's definition?

 

I suppose it's a rhetorical question as Ryan clearly knows the answer. Maybe he's just highlighting it to Jack.

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I suppose it's a rhetorical question as Ryan clearly knows the answer. Maybe he's just highlighting it to Jack.

 

It most definitely is rethorical. Still even a rethoric question can makes sense (which this one really doesn't). I guess I'll have to settle for the developers wanting to have something cool sounding without giving it further thought.^^

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  • 5 months later...

The scene where Ryan dies is my favorite scene in any video game.

 

I like to think that Ryan believed maybe Jack could break the mind control through sheer force of will, and he made the ultimate gamble on this, and lost - which is really brilliant story telling since the opposite outcome would have been a cliche.

Edited by lporiginalg
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Thanks a bunch for creating the thread Mendel, much appreciated.

 

And the last thing in the scene I don't get is Ryans words respectively intentions in his end. It's already weird that he makes Jack dance like a puppet by saying "run", "stop", "turn" and ultimately "kill" without adding the "would you kindly" but what really confuses me is how the "a man chooses, a slave obeys" fits in this situation. He gives Jack the golf club, orders him to kill him (as said, without the "w.y.k.") and then when Jack is doing exactly that he shouts at him "OBEY!!!" as if Jack wasn't obedient. I don't really get that. What makes it more confusing was Ryan's first statement "was a man sent to kill or a slave to obey?" I mean where is the difference? Jack was indeed sent to kill but by doing this he was obedient to Atlas, so how does that make him a man that chooses and not a slave that obeys?

 

 

First off, saying "would you kindly" 12 times the course of a couple minutes would have been extremely redundant, so I'm sure this is why they didn't feel the need to include it with every command given in that scene.

 

Your last sentence asks how Jack is a man and not a slave, the answer is that he isn't. Like I said above, I feel Ryan was trying to give Jack the choice, prove you're a man, but Jack failed the test and Ryan paid with his life. The reason he shouts OBEY in anger is because Jack keeps beating him so at that point I like to think he's basically saying "OBEY YOU LITTLE BITCH CAUSE THAT'S ALL YOUR GOOD FOR YOU PATHETIC SLAVE!!!" - it's a taunt, a last attempt to reach him.

 

It's certainly a scene that's open to interpretation, but that's my take on it. This is actually also why I feel the scene is so absolutely brilliant, because the writer(s) aren't hitting you over the head with Ryan's reasoning and spelling it out for you, but rather leaving you to ponder and decide for yourself.

Edited by lporiginalg
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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...
  • 6 months later...
The scene where Ryan dies is my favorite scene in any video game.

 

I like to think that Ryan believed maybe Jack could break the mind control through sheer force of will, and he made the ultimate gamble on this, and lost - which is really brilliant story telling since the opposite outcome would have been a cliche.

 

Wow, this has to be the most brilliant interpretation of said scene I've heard til now. I really like that. Thanks for sharing.^^

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  • 2 months later...

Many praise this as one of the best stories in a game.

My take is that it is rather lacking. The biggest flaw is that you play the silent hero. You don't know who you are and why you do what you do. You jump in a strange submerging elevator after surviving a plane crash?

 

Along the way you see crazy, deranged people who just want to kill you, yet you stay to save an unknown mans family? This is explained later on when you meet Ryan, but that is more than halfway through the game. Only reason to suspect that you are special is a few flashing images of old folks.

On your way, the story of Raptures fall unfolds, but it never seems to affect you directly, you are just drawn in without questioning.

 

Raptures story is a good one though. But your part in it is lost for the crucial beginning where you get an affection for your character and your goals.

 

And the ending with the little sisters? That they were the focus of the story was not clear until then.

They had a great background and setting but the players story was missed totally. At least for me.

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Many praise this as one of the best stories in a game.

My take is that it is rather lacking. The biggest flaw is that you play the silent hero. You don't know who you are and why you do what you do. You jump in a strange submerging elevator after surviving a plane crash?

 

Along the way you see crazy, deranged people who just want to kill you, yet you stay to save an unknown mans family? This is explained later on when you meet Ryan, but that is more than halfway through the game. Only reason to suspect that you are special is a few flashing images of old folks.

On your way, the story of Raptures fall unfolds, but it never seems to affect you directly, you are just drawn in without questioning.

 

Raptures story is a good one though. But your part in it is lost for the crucial beginning where you get an affection for your character and your goals.

 

And the ending with the little sisters? That they were the focus of the story was not clear until then.

They had a great background and setting but the players story was missed totally. At least for me.

 

I believe you play the 'silent hero' so as to immerse yourself as the hero, rather than have him speak and take you out of that personal experience.

 

As for all your other concerns, I think you're more the type of gamer that wants more realism/reality out of your gaming experience.

 

I'm the opposite. I get enough dose of real life in my day, so when gaming, I like to be taken away to environments that are fun and don't require full explanations or make exact sense in my real world.

 

When he crashes outside the lighthouse and goes into the sub, you learn at the end of the game he's being controlled. While not specifically told to get inside, there was - to me - obvious a draw to going inside, and thus into Rapture.

 

To each their own as the saying goes.

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I believe you play the 'silent hero' so as to immerse yourself as the hero, rather than have him speak and take you out of that personal experience.

 

As for all your other concerns, I think you're more the type of gamer that wants more realism/reality out of your gaming experience.

 

I'm the opposite. I get enough dose of real life in my day, so when gaming, I like to be taken away to environments that are fun and don't require full explanations or make exact sense in my real world.

 

When he crashes outside the lighthouse and goes into the sub, you learn at the end of the game he's being controlled. While not specifically told to get inside, there was - to me - obvious a draw to going inside, and thus into Rapture.

 

To each their own as the saying goes.

 

I do love stories that are far from reality, especially David Lynch movies. And they can be hard to explain :)

 

But since you play a role in this story, you need to be somewhat aware of why you're going through the motions.

I get that your character does it all because of a 'calling' but that never really is present in the gameplay. With the silent hero the writers need to trigger a sense of that it actually is you who are there. It could have been done easily with a short introductory sequence to settle you in the role.

 

As a gamer/receiver of impressions I enjoy mostly a narrative that is solid and in context of what you are doing. In this case the narrative is solid but your actions lack context in a big part of the game.

 

That being said, there are few games that can do this without breaking the story to fit in the gameplay.

My 'curse' is that I look at everything from a critical standpoint nowadays.

 

I didn't write this to say that everyone else is wrong though. I just wanted to give my (rather opposite) thoughts about the story.

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